Upgrade Advice

[R-Banger]

Hello everyone,

I am building a budget and timeline for the old bird as I fly her more. The exterior is in good shape paintwise, and the interior is excellent. I mostly use her for VFR flight, but being in Los Angeles there are days I may need to go IFR to punch in and out of layers so avionics will be due at some point. Will do the little things like swapping lights to LED as they burn out one at a time. Anyway I am kind of leaning towards doing a JPI 900 and redoing the right side of the panel to get it all cleaned up first, especially because the fuel gauges. May do another G5 and a GTN, would like to upgrade audio panel too. Full disclosure, I love Garmin products. Little annoying things for me are the wires from the microphones, would love to integrate in the yoke I am sure I will think of more little things. Anyway, curious to hear everyone's suggestions on what they would do first, figured this would be fun.

[R-Banger]

Forgot to mention the mission. Most flying is business to Salt Lake City from LA and Phoenix area, probably the longest haul it will regularly do. The rest is fun local flights up and down the coast with the family, and Tahoe trips. Useful load is 925, so a diet is also in order at some point for me and the plane.

[Niko182]

The best setup possible IMO:

PAR200B Audio Panel Comm
GNX375 ADSB WAAS GPS
GNC255 Nav/Comm
Get another G5 and get rid of both CDI's.
JPI900  inbetween the 6 pack and the Radio stack and get rid of the old engine instruments.
Full new panel with everything properly organized.
2 USB chargers
 

 

[carusoam]

R-B,

Is this a forever plane?

You can get a lot out of a lesser JPI, a non-primary version...

If it is a forever plane...

nothing but the best, paid for over time... 

If you are committed to going to get the IR... it cost the same today, as it will tomorrow... The sooner you have it, the the safer you will be in the same plane...

+1 for getting a WAAS based GPS navigator... it is the highest technology with the most capability... perfect for learning the IFR system with... A GTN has VOR,ILS, and WAAS approach capability....

I really like the panel ideas that MSers are posting lately...

PP thoughts only, everyone is different!

Best regards,

-a-

[R-Banger]

Man it's so hard to decide on the forever plane. At first it was bought as a stepping stone till the family got bigger, but honestly this thing is so economical and the more I fly it the more I love it. It's for sure a 4-5 year plane, but have been kicking around paying it off and keeping it much longer. I have the JPI 700 right now, my old gauges are working for now, but the fuel gauges are pretty much useless. I liked the 900 as I do want to get as much weight out of the plane as possible and clean the panel up so it being a primary replacement is a plus.

I am not as familiar with the PAR200B, will need to check it out. WAAS is a must, I won't spend the money on avionics without it. Anybody seen USB-C chargers for our birds yet? I feel like I don't have anything that uses USB anymore, and it seems like it's on its way out.

 

[Ragsf15e]

17 minutes ago, R-Banger said:

Man it's so hard to decide on the forever plane. At first it was bought as a stepping stone till the family got bigger, but honestly this thing is so economical and the more I fly it the more I love it. It's for sure a 4-5 year plane, but have been kicking around paying it off and keeping it much longer. I have the JPI 700 right now, my old gauges are working for now, but the fuel gauges are pretty much useless. I liked the 900 as I do want to get as much weight out of the plane as possible and clean the panel up so it being a primary replacement is a plus.

I am not as familiar with the PAR200B, will need to check it out. WAAS is a must, I won't spend the money on avionics without it. Anybody seen USB-C chargers for our birds yet? I feel like I don't have anything that uses USB anymore, and it seems like it's on its way out.

 

I’d go with pma450B audio panel.  It does have usb c.  It’s not garmin but top of the line Bluetooth audio.  Not expensive compared to the otherr stuff you need.  Everything else, I’m with you, I like garmin.

So yeah, either another G5 to replace the Cdis or go big and get a g3x.  Either way you need a new panel on the left side just to make it a reasonable instrument scan.  Jpi 900 do you real good for engine instruments or get the engine instruments on the new g3x, thats definitely a nice option and you stick with garmin all the way around.  It’s pricey, no doubt, but opm is real nice to play with.
 

what is your current adsb?  Maybe a used gtn 650 would be good for you, maybe the -375?  
 

what autopilot do you have?  What’s your future autopilot thinking?

remember, install will cost at least as much or likely more than the equipment.

[Niko182]

Pretty sure except for the second bluetooth on the PMA450, the par200 and the pma450 are the same.

[Ragsf15e]

5 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Pretty sure except for the second bluetooth on the PMA450, the par200 and the pma450 are the same.

Doesn’t the Par come with a remote radio and function as both a comm radio and intercom?

[Niko182]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

Doesn’t the Par come with a remote radio and function as both a comm radio and intercom?

Forgot the obvious part. Yes the par200 is a com. Its a pma450b with a gtr225, without a number 2 bluetooth.

[R-Banger]

5 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’d go with pma450B audio panel.  It does have usb c.  It’s not garmin but top of the line Bluetooth audio.  Not expensive compared to the otherr stuff you need.  Everything else, I’m with you, I like garmin.

So yeah, either another G5 to replace the Cdis or go big and get a g3x.  Either way you need a new panel on the left side just to make it a reasonable instrument scan.  Jpi 900 do you real good for engine instruments or get the engine instruments on the new g3x, thats definitely a nice option and you stick with garmin all the way around.  It’s pricey, no doubt, but opm is real nice to play with.
 

what is your current adsb?  Maybe a used gtn 650 would be good for you, maybe the -375?  
 

what autopilot do you have?  What’s your future autopilot thinking?

remember, install will cost at least as much or likely more than the equipment.

G3X with the EIS would be sweet! If I decide forever plane, that would definitely be the route I would go. Already have the G5 for the backup too in that case. Got the uAvionix tailbeacon right now which does the job for now. I use the Sentry on my foreflight for traffic and love it as far as ADSB in goes. 

I liked the 375, the previous owner was looking at it before he sold it. I haven't played with one in person was worried about it being too small and not being a NAV/COM. For the price I was leaning towards a used GTN650. The 375 is slick but pretty spendy, not a big stretch for a 650.

AP is not on my priority list unless I was planning on hard IFR, personally not a fan of single engine hard IFR. Who knows though over time I may shift. I would go GF500 if I did, once it is available. I love the Garmin GFC autopilots. 

[Ragsf15e]

Just now, R-Banger said:

G3X with the EIS would be sweet! If I decide forever plane, that would definitely be the route I would go. Already have the G5 for the backup too in that case. Got the uAvionix tailbeacon right now which does the job for now. I use the Sentry on my foreflight for traffic and love it as far as ADSB in goes. 

I liked the 375, the previous owner was looking at it before he sold it. I haven't played with one in person was worried about it being too small and not being a NAV/COM. For the price I was leaning towards a used GTN650. The 375 is slick but pretty spendy, not a big stretch for a 650.

AP is not on my priority list unless I was planning on hard IFR, personally not a fan of single engine hard IFR. Who knows though over time I may shift. I would go GF500 if I did, once it is available. I love the Garmin GFC autopilots. 

Nice.  Autopilot be real good for those long xc legs even vfr.  Heading and alt hold is all you need, but trust me, you’ll never go back.  Just keep that in mind as you upgrade.

Seems to me, your adsb and transpoder are fine.  I would probably go with a gtn650.  
 

in my opinion, you need a waas gps and a decent engine monitor soon.  Then decide what to do with the left side of the panel.

[carusoam]

For a great example of an M20E as a forever plane....

Pics of the panel are around here....

-a-

 

[R-Banger]

17 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For a great example of an M20E as a forever plane....

Pics of the panel are around here....

-a-

 

Man if Bob had put his plane up a few months earlier, I would have jumped all over that, especially at that price. I would love that Sabre cowl on my bird!

[R-Banger]

26 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Nice.  Autopilot be real good for those long xc legs even vfr.  Heading and alt hold is all you need, but trust me, you’ll never go back.  Just keep that in mind as you upgrade.

Seems to me, your adsb and transpoder are fine.  I would probably go with a gtn650.  
 

in my opinion, you need a waas gps and a decent engine monitor soon.  Then decide what to do with the left side of the panel.

Yeah that is what I am thinking too. Next annual is April so time to start stashing and tackle one thing each year. Hopefully my engine instruments hold as I would prefer to get the GPS and audio done after thinking aloud with ya'll.

 

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, R-Banger said:

Yeah that is what I am thinking too. Next annual is April so time to start stashing and tackle one thing each year. Hopefully my engine instruments hold as I would prefer to get the GPS and audio done after thinking aloud with ya'll.

 

Gnc355 is another solid gps option.  No nav radio but you don’t really need that and you’ll probably have a #2 nav/com as backup.  Maybe cheaper than a used 650? Smaller too?

[David Lloyd]

Last year I was facing some of the same decisions. I would have rather pulled everything form the panel, installed an Avidyne 540, PAR200B audio/com and a complete Dynon panel including autopilot (several hundred hours with Dynon in an RV).  Two problems:  Dynon autopilot is not approved yet and it would cost a bit over $40k not including the autopilot, another $5-7k installed. I considered doing everything no and the autopilot later.  I've got several thousand hours without and autopilot and never considered it a big deal until using the Dynon in the RV.  Having a nice autopilot is nice, a luxury.   I've  got the money, but at 69 and tight with money, well, didn't quite see all that happening.

Wound up keeping the S-tec 60-2 autopilot, KX-165 and had a GTX375 and PAR200B installed.  Two navs, two coms, ADSB transponder in and out.  The 375 is big enough to enter a flight plan and do what you want.  If you want something bigger to look at, get an iPad. A 650 is only marginally larger than the 375. To get a screen that will be much easier to see, get a 750.  It's only money.  The PAR200B, transmits and receives just like it should. As an intercom, it is much better than the Garmin 240 audio panel in my RV.  Set the volume and forget about it.  The 240 required fiddling with the adjustments even with changes in power settings.

Right now I am considering two G5s.  Get rid of the vacuum pump and horizon before one of them croaks.  Get rid of the King HSI before it croaks.  Two repairs last year, the next repair I expect to be expensive.  A side benefit to the G5s is GPSS included.  Right now the S-tec tracks the nav okay. Turns are troublesome, it overshoots and then weaves around quite a bit before settling down. I have been told GPSS will make it track as if on a rail.

At some point, I need do do something about an engine monitor.  Right now it has a fuel computer and four probe  but only the singe probe CHT.  The amp gauge is inop.  As is the OAT.  A JPI 900 will fix all that.

Hmm, by the time all that is done, Plan A would have been about the same money by the time I sold leftover radios, S-tec, etc.  And I would have what I wanted to begin with.

[Ragsf15e]

Another new/interesting engine monitor solution is a gi-275.  It’s small but certified as primary according to garmin website.  Fit nicely in an instrument hole.

David, yeah, the gpss is really nice with an stec autopilot.  If it’s real bumpy or you want your autopilot to fly precision approaches to mins, maybe the gfc500 be nice, but gpss and stec is a great 90%solution.

Youre spot on with the G5s too, I feel real good about them instead of vacuum adi and king hsi waiting to fail.  As you said, it’s only money, so I might have gone with dual gi275s instead so they didn’t have to cut up my decent looking panel to put in square g5s.

[larryb]

For the mission of LA, Salt Lake, Phoenix and Tahoe it seems to me that you would want a turbo airplane. Especially if you are going to do this on a schedule for business. An E can certainly do this, but speed and altitude are certainly going to be nice on that LA to Salt Lake run.

[bonal]

18 hours ago, R-Banger said:

Man it's so hard to decide on the forever plane. At first it was bought as a stepping stone till the family got bigger, but honestly this thing is so economical and the more I fly it the more I love it. It's for sure a 4-5 year plane, but have been kicking around paying it off and keeping it much longer. I have the JPI 700 right now, my old gauges are working for now, but the fuel gauges are pretty much useless. I liked the 900 as I do want to get as much weight out of the plane as possible and clean the panel up so it being a primary replacement is a plus.

I am not as familiar with the PAR200B, will need to check it out. WAAS is a must, I won't spend the money on avionics without it. Anybody seen USB-C chargers for our birds yet? I feel like I don't have anything that uses USB anymore, and it seems like it's on its way out.

 

Need to do some soul searching. May I ask you how old you are. To a young man four to five years may seem a long time but as an older gent I can promise you five years passes so fast that making a big investment in avionics would not be a good investment.  Better to sell and find one that is equipped the way you want.  Of course you could do all the upgrades and then decide you just made it into a forever airplane.  Got plans for a future full of kids that you don't have now. Another MS member is considering an upgrade to a Bonanza and your short body may need to gain UL and more seats.  I know that's not much help but something to think about.

[R-Banger]

8 hours ago, bonal said:

Need to do some soul searching. May I ask you how old you are. To a young man four to five years may seem a long time but as an older gent I can promise you five years passes so fast that making a big investment in avionics would not be a good investment.  Better to sell and find one that is equipped the way you want.  Of course you could do all the upgrades and then decide you just made it into a forever airplane.  Got plans for a future full of kids that you don't have now. Another MS member is considering an upgrade to a Bonanza and your short body may need to gain UL and more seats.  I know that's not much help but something to think about.

All good, I am 32 so it does sound a ways away to me. We have a 10 month old right now and hopefully my  wife will give me at least two more but who knows, i hear plans always change once you get past the first one. So hard to tell at this point, who knows my kid may not like flying at all, or they could love it. Maybe I am in the honeymoon phase of aircraft ownership still but this plane really checks a lot of boxes for me. 

[Browncbr1]

Well, if you have more that two kids, then it won’t be your forever plane.  Also, for your missions to salt lake and Tahoe, I would definitely want turbo.   

Later model turbo twinco with baggage jump seats could get you going with three kids, but once they get to be knuckle dragging meat eaters, you will run out of UL.     

[R-Banger]

8 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Well, if you have more that two kids, then it won’t be your forever plane.  Also, for your missions to salt lake and Tahoe, I would definitely want turbo.   

Later model turbo twinco with baggage jump seats could get you going with three kids, but once they get to be knuckle dragging meat eaters, you will run out of UL.     

I was originally looking at the 252 before I decided E, but honestly the only flight I felt I wanted/needed a turbo was for hot days at Tahoe. Salt Lake is usually VFR, and if it's not, it's either convective or there is icing. I am originally from there and used to try to chase safe actual instrument time so I could get it in my logbook back when I flew for a living. If I wasn't in turbine or FIKI twin usually wasn't going to be doable. When I really came down to it I figured the Tahoe trips aren't as regular or common as we would like yet. More of a twice or three times a year right now. I think the kids thing is going to be the big variable the more we talked about this. If we stick with two then I may just hang onto her for a long time. Who knows, I want a bunch, but we got lucky on the first one being easy. I hear once you have a tough one it changes your plans. 

Maybe I will chase the smaller odds and ends projects for fun, like getting the mic system integrated in the yoke, etc till I am more concrete on it.

[Browncbr1]

On 5/24/2020 at 5:23 PM, R-Banger said:

I was originally looking at the 252 before I decided E, but honestly the only flight I felt I wanted/needed a turbo was for hot days at Tahoe. Salt Lake is usually VFR, and if it's not, it's either convective or there is icing. I am originally from there and used to try to chase safe actual instrument time so I could get it in my logbook back when I flew for a living. If I wasn't in turbine or FIKI twin usually wasn't going to be doable. When I really came down to it I figured the Tahoe trips aren't as regular or common as we would like yet. More of a twice or three times a year right now. I think the kids thing is going to be the big variable the more we talked about this. If we stick with two then I may just hang onto her for a long time. Who knows, I want a bunch, but we got lucky on the first one being easy. I hear once you have a tough one it changes your plans. 

Maybe I will chase the smaller odds and ends projects for fun, like getting the mic system integrated in the yoke, etc till I am more concrete on it.

Yea, our first was/is super strong willed, so we barely had the second child 3 years later.  We are done.    If you wanted to stick with a SE, you could check cherokee6 with the 300 or Saratoga.  I just feel like they are a tad too slow and they glide like bricks.  

[ZuluZulu]

Congrats on the new plane and congrats @DustinNwind on the sale!

[R-Banger]

4 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

Congrats on the new plane and congrats @DustinNwind on the sale!

Ah the secret is out! How did you know?!