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CIRRUS TRAGEDY


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1 minute ago, MooneyMitch said:

I should have been more clear regarding the added power description............her words were that the plane was doing funny things overhead in level flight and then suddenly it sounded as though rapid full power was added prior to the plane moving out of her sight.  Within a few seconds later, she heard the crash explosion.  Of course, this is from a witness and not fact at all.

 

ah, that's very different from what I was assuming!  Thanks. The NTSB takes such account very seriously and typically includes witness accounts in the preliminary report. They'll be included and released in the docket with the final as well.

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A Cirrus SR20 is no more demanding than a 172 or a Warrior. It is only marginally faster in the traffic pattern. In fact, it has better low speed handling qualities due to the cuffed wing. Ailerons stay effective into the stall, so if you forget the rudder, you can still retain control. 

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1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Good plan and very wise to always critique yourself. But I think sometimes we scare folks from banking in the pattern; especially when they want to standard rate turns in the pattern. So personally I have no problem "over" banking and not staying coordinated as long as we're keeping the wing unloaded. Instead for me and what I teach is: don't pull back on the yoke and don't skid in addition to don't get too slow.  I'll happily slip away as needed; especially on a short approach. And when we do need to recover from when we err and get too slow, PUSH first to recover as you are simultaneously adding power. Pitch is instantaneous, power is not.

I agree completely, which is what I was trying to convey combining over bank with loading the wing (over bank/load up the wing). I know they are two different things, just not so good at explaining it. When I was flying the Cherokees for my PPL on more than one occasion I was banking 30° in the pattern, keeping the wing unloaded. My CFI didn't have a problem with it, he would refer to it as my "fighter pilot turn." He said it was fine if the wing stayed unloaded, but also said I probably didn't want to fly like that in my check-ride as the DPE might not like it. 

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11 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I agree completely, which is what I was trying to convey combining over bank with loading the wing (over bank/load up the wing). I know they are two different things, just not so good at explaining it. When I was flying the Cherokees for my PPL on more than one occasion I was banking 30° in the pattern, keeping the wing unloaded. My CFI didn't have a problem with it, he would refer to it as my "fighter pilot turn." He said it was fine if the wing stayed unloaded, but also said I probably didn't want to fly like that in my check-ride as the DPE might not like it. 

Also agree.  I'm certainly not afraid to make pattern turns [possibly not good with my descriptions ], but yes, I am extremely mindful, keeping all in the proper flight parameters...........keeping the environmental aspects in mind as well.

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I made a comment on another thread about gear ups which has nothing to do with this tragedy. My comment was about how often I would see traffic on base or final that was so low so close to earth when I was on the down wind.  It is so important to maintain a safe AOA when low and slow.  But you have to have enough space to permit unloading of a wing coming in too low takes away the option of pushing to unload the wing.  I'm not saying this is what happened here because I don't know but it gets to the point of maintaining control at all times especially when the ground is coming up to meet you.

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The student was an ER doctor from Burbank. That really hits home.

I’ve had to work hard to maintain my currency during this outbreak and I can’t imagine how a student pilot ER doctor would have done it, especially in a sleek airplane like a Cirrus. Maybe it was his outlet from all the stress at work...

I’ve tried to fly every week but still find myself making a higher than average number of stupid mistakes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.com/news/local-news/pilot-killed-in-santa-barbara-county-plane-crash-identified-as-burbank-man/amp/

 

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31 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

The student was an ER doctor from Burbank. That really hits home.

I’ve had to work hard to maintain my currency during this outbreak and I can’t imagine how a student pilot ER doctor would have done it, especially in a sleek airplane like a Cirrus. Maybe it was his outlet from all the stress at work...

I’ve tried to fly every week but still find myself making a higher than average number of stupid mistakes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.com/news/local-news/pilot-killed-in-santa-barbara-county-plane-crash-identified-as-burbank-man/amp/

 

Thank you so much frontliners, ALWAYS!!!.... I’m so sad for his family.

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2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

The student was an ER doctor from Burbank. That really hits home.

I’ve had to work hard to maintain my currency during this outbreak and I can’t imagine how a student pilot ER doctor would have done it, especially in a sleek airplane like a Cirrus. Maybe it was his outlet from all the stress at work...

I’ve tried to fly every week but still find myself making a higher than average number of stupid mistakes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.com/news/local-news/pilot-killed-in-santa-barbara-county-plane-crash-identified-as-burbank-man/amp/

 

There is a lesson in this remark, that I have also thought about in the past.  It reminds me of two other scenarios.

1 - about 12 years ago when I still owned my Diamond DA40 and I was on the diamond forum a lot, one fellow posted that his son's wife had died in a car crash.  And they were 3 hours flight away and something like 10 hours drive.  He started to prep for a flight but then realized he was just way to rattled to do a safe flight so he made a wise decision to drive.

...which even though driving is a bit easier ... it can also be dangerous when in mental distress.

2 - about 17 years ago when my father past away suddenly and tragically, wow was I rattled.  I went down to DC with my uncle to clean out his apartment and take care of his affairs.  I did several space-cadet dumb things.  Worst was I ran a red light at a four way intersection at full speed - I mean at 50mph I drove through a moderately heavy traffic four way light in the wrong direction, and for the grace of god and good luck nothing happened.  I just went sailing through, with my uncle on board and only in the middle of the intersection did I realize what happened and what I was doing and there were other cars who only began to tap their brakes going at 90 degrees to us also at full speed but luck - there was no collision - only luck.

actually - a 3rd - about a week later at home - I went out on a bike ride, and I simply forgot to tighten the quick release squwer on the rear wheel - I mean I have been a bike racer since I was 17 so this is second nature to me - but I simply put the wheel on and not even a little bit tightened.  Well after about 20 minutes of warm up and stood up to stomp on the pedals - and boom the wheel came half off and froze and I flipped over, crashed and broke my wrist.  But I didn't break my neck or crack my skull - or get hit by a car, etc...knock on wood.

Anyway - theme of these stories, and what I take from the ER doctor who did this stall spin in his cirrus, is we are only fallible humans and go easy on ourselves and sometimes if your head is not in the game, maybe find a way to get the head in the game or forgive yourself and just don't go.

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19 hours ago, carusoam said:

As we saw with the snow birds...

There is going to be a minimum altitude in which anyone can expect the parachute to work...

Any variation from horizontal and level, takes away from the best conditions...

The entire fall will take Less than about 1.5 seconds... (Alexa doing the math)

Compare to Irish’s math above...

Any time deciding... or pushing the throttle... or getting your hand to the red handle... takes up a good part of the 1.5 seconds you have left...

The biggest drawback of the parachute... it doesn’t work at TPA very reliably... physics of a Stall happens way too quickly compared to human actions... Or inactions...

Our biggest danger comes with the turn from base to final... from that height, the fall will be less than a second...
 

A heart-attack seems to last forever compared to that time... (A good Heart-attack allows you enough time to make a friend, and have them call 911, select your new friend wisely, you don’t have enough time to make two friends)
 

Or take a shower, wash your hair, get dressed, hop in your car and drive to the Emergency Room. On the other hand, a bad one and you’re just gone.

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55 minutes ago, BKlott said:

Or take a shower, wash your hair, get dressed, hop in your car and drive to the Emergency Room. On the other hand, a bad one and you’re just gone.

You sound like your speaking from experience! Reminds me of a similar stunt I pulled years ago. Had a ski accident where I cracked my upper femur - no break but crack. So I was on crutches but according to my doc I went back to work too early rather than staying home to keep it elevated. I didn't keep it elevated enough at work like I should have and it wouldn't of been that hard since I had a nice office but I was too busy (stupid) meeting with the troops. I got too much swelling in the lower leg, a blood clot developed and before long the clot was breaking apart and going into my lungs making it harder to breathe, first noticeable when I was moving around on the crutches. Second stupid thing I did was chalk this up to a couple of cracked ribs. But then it progressed to the point I was having difficulty breathing in my chair sitting down. Should have went back home that morning, or really the emergency room, but waited till lunch to ask a colleague to take to the ER which was only a mile away. I could not believe I was having a heart attack but soon I became educated that I had a DVT which cause a PE with over 70% blockage to the lungs. Luckily I was super fit at the time yet I spent the next week in the ICU with all the narcotics I wanted. It was a full 6 more months till I could get my medical back. Had no clue how close I was to dying. But boy did that event alter my outlook on life as well as my attitude that a little pain just makes you stronger.

Makes me think of Bernard Shaw , who sums it up well: "Wisdom is wasted on the old, and youth is wasted on the young."

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1 hour ago, kortopates said:

You sound like your speaking from experience! Reminds me of a similar stunt I pulled years ago. Had a ski accident where I cracked my upper femur - no break but crack. So I was on crutches but according to my doc I went back to work too early rather than staying home to keep it elevated. I didn't keep it elevated enough at work like I should have and it wouldn't of been that hard since I had a nice office but I was too busy (stupid) meeting with the troops. I got too much swelling in the lower leg, a blood clot developed and before long the clot was breaking apart and going into my lungs making it harder to breathe, first noticeable when I was moving around on the crutches. Second stupid thing I did was chalk this up to a couple of cracked ribs. But then it progressed to the point I was having difficulty breathing in my chair sitting down. Should have went back home that morning, or really the emergency room, but waited till lunch to ask a colleague to take to the ER which was only a mile away. I could not believe I was having a heart attack but soon I became educated that I had a DVT which cause a PE with over 70% blockage to the lungs. Luckily I was super fit at the time yet I spent the next week in the ICU with all the narcotics I wanted. It was a full 6 more months till I could get my medical back. Had no clue how close I was to dying. But boy did that event alter my outlook on life as well as my attitude that a little pain just makes you stronger.

Makes me think of Bernard Shaw , who sums it up well: "Wisdom is wasted on the old, and youth is wasted on the young."

My realtor had a PE when we were looking at houses. He was a fit guy and got winded just walking around the houses so my wife kindly suggested he go to the ER. He kind of blew it off. I even offered to drive him, but he said no.

Called me later that night...guess what they found on the CT?

We still managed to close on time, though.
 

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16 hours ago, kortopates said:

You sound like your speaking from experience! Reminds me of a similar stunt I pulled years ago. Had a ski accident where I cracked my upper femur - no break but crack. So I was on crutches but according to my doc I went back to work too early rather than staying home to keep it elevated. I didn't keep it elevated enough at work like I should have and it wouldn't of been that hard since I had a nice office but I was too busy (stupid) meeting with the troops. I got too much swelling in the lower leg, a blood clot developed and before long the clot was breaking apart and going into my lungs making it harder to breathe, first noticeable when I was moving around on the crutches. Second stupid thing I did was chalk this up to a couple of cracked ribs. But then it progressed to the point I was having difficulty breathing in my chair sitting down. Should have went back home that morning, or really the emergency room, but waited till lunch to ask a colleague to take to the ER which was only a mile away. I could not believe I was having a heart attack but soon I became educated that I had a DVT which cause a PE with over 70% blockage to the lungs. Luckily I was super fit at the time yet I spent the next week in the ICU with all the narcotics I wanted. It was a full 6 more months till I could get my medical back. Had no clue how close I was to dying. But boy did that event alter my outlook on life as well as my attitude that a little pain just makes you stronger.

Makes me think of Bernard Shaw , who sums it up well: "Wisdom is wasted on the old, and youth is wasted on the young."

Yep.

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On 5/20/2020 at 5:23 PM, PTK said:

Exceeding AOA as in an accelerated stall, or worse, a cross control stall. Take your pick. 
RIP. Prayers for his family and loved ones left behind.


 

definitely exceeded critical AoA to get the plane to wrap up like that.  An accelerated stall alone though wouldn’t necessarily cause the spin... it would have to be an uncoordinated accelerated stall, with some level of spin inputs into the turn (ie, “bottom wing+ bottom rudder”... a skid).  In a slippery plane like a cirrus- i wonder if the pilot would even recognize how little bottom rudder it would take to enter that spin, though.  Even applying just a little (not recognized) might be enough.

a cross controlled stall with bottom wing (wing down) + top rudder tends to be righting in most aircraft (think forward slip).  So the pilot most likely wasn’t doing that.

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1 hour ago, M016576 said:

it would have to be an uncoordinated accelerated stall, with some level of spin inputs into the turn (ie, “bottom wing+ bottom rudder”... a skid).

What you describe and call “uncoordinated accelerated stall“ is, as what I call and said, a cross controlled stall. The lethal variety, i.e. skidding, bottom rudder.

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

a cross controlled stall with bottom wing (wing down) + top rudder tends to be righting in most aircraft (think forward slip).  So the pilot most likely wasn’t doing that.

We agree, most likely he wasn’t in a forward slip. That’s also uncoordinated but benign. I wish he was, he’d be alive today. 

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23 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Anyway - theme of these stories, and what I take from the ER doctor who did this stall spin in his cirrus, is we are only fallible humans and go easy on ourselves and sometimes if your head is not in the game, maybe find a way to get the head in the game or forgive yourself and just don't go.

I just read this again and I wish I could give it 10 “likes.” I think the most difficult flight to cancel is the one where you have fine weather and a perfectly functioning plane but you’re just not up to it that day. Takes a lot of humility and self-awareness to do that.

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

What you describe and call “uncoordinated accelerated stall“ is, as what I call and said, a cross controlled stall. The lethal variety, i.e. skidding, bottom rudder.

Technically a skid is not cross controlled... as cross controlling literally means aileron one direction, rudder In the opposite (crossed controls), vice a skid where the rudder and Aileron are in the same direction.  
 

you can easily wrap up the aircraft in a base to final turn with lets say left wing down, left rudder, then cross controlling by leaving the rudder in but rolling to the right.... that plus backstick pressure to pass through the critical AoA could result in a snap roll left.  Which would be considered cross controlling, although from a skid entry.  I get your drift- we are trying to say the same thing- he wasn’t in coordinated flight- and that, in some capacity, led to the spin in (most likely).

 

edit:  I see where the disconnect is-  the reason for spin entry in both circumstances is a cross controlling action + stalling- hence you saying “cross control” (which makes sense)... a skidded turn tends to be the “lead-in element” of said spin- that’s where I’ve crossed the wires- as a skid itself isn’t a cross controlling action.  It’s what the pilot does as the aircraft wraps up that is the cross control. So yeah- all that to say- we’re saying the same thing :)

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1 hour ago, brndiar said:

Good analysis of one accident from AvWeb.

 

m

That’s a great video!  Smart wing design on that thing.  Also amazing how little of that aircraft appeared to be remaining, and how they were still able to recover the flight recorder.  Thanks!

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2 hours ago, PTK said:

We agree, most likely he wasn’t in a forward slip. That’s also uncoordinated but benign. I wish he was, he’d be alive today

Yes, that is not a forward slip, the SR20 sideslips fine completely uncoordinated on sensible speed, the only “caution” is fuel imbalance and venting issues after 20 seconds  

One cannot use the rudder to take an SR20 out of a spin, if you don’t regain control with a full forward push on the yoke then ailerons (which are highly effective at slow speed) you pull the orange air-break (simple reason that is hard to recognise spin vs dive)

AFAIK, there is zero issue with flying uncoordinated on crossed-controls in straight flight as long as you are not turning OR stalling, only (steep & loaded) turns need coordination, for anything else you can fly uncoordinated if you wish and can afford large fuel bills: flying slippery aircrafts uncoordinated in a sideslip at 1G & constant heading is a healthy thing at slow speeds at least all you have to do is push stick/yoke forward and centralise...

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2 hours ago, M016576 said:

I get your drift- we are trying to say the same thing- he wasn’t in coordinated flight- and that, in some capacity, led to the spin in (most likely).

Yes, we can all agree I hope that a skid in the presence of a stall is bad. How do we put that in pilots’ heads and make sure they recognize not to put the airplane in this predicament? 

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2 hours ago, PTK said:

Yes, we can all agree I hope that a skid in the presence of a stall is bad. How do we put that in pilots’ heads and make sure they recognize not to put the airplane in this predicament? 

I think the key to drive home is that if the approach is looking ugly, and requires more than a standard rate turn to capture centerline, that it’s best to just take it around rather than try to “make it happen.” 
 

Over the years I’ve seen far too many mishaps in both military and civilian aviation that I attribute to “trying to make it happen” when prudence dictates just taking it around and trying again in a more stabilized manner.  That sort of decision making is not necessarily natural for the type A pilot (accepting that one may have ended up in a position where it’s better and safer to abort the approach, landing, mission).  
 

one way I’ve heard an instructor phrase this phenomenon with a positive reinforcement is this... “just take it around.. go arounds are free- and you get some extra flight time for them!”

the real stink is this, though... I’m willing to bet that if this was a wrapped up approach turn stall... Imthat it wasn’t the first time this pilot had been in this predicament... and had made the approach “happen.”  It was just the first time (and last) that he spun it in.

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On 5/22/2020 at 7:58 PM, philiplane said:

A Cirrus SR20 is no more demanding than a 172 or a Warrior. It is only marginally faster in the traffic pattern. In fact, it has better low speed handling qualities due to the cuffed wing. Ailerons stay effective into the stall, so if you forget the rudder, you can still retain control. 

I object. Having flown SR20ies I always found myself uncomfortable with it. The SR20 is quite low powered for its wings and there is not much forgiving in riding the envelope. The SR22 is much better due to the more power. Biggest trouble for me was to keep an eye on speed in the SR20, if I remember correctly the stall at bank was horror due to the clean laminar profile, something like 99 knots for 45 or 60 bank correct? You can get the SR20 slow, but only in quite stable wings level - once you bank, the stall speed goes through the roof. Maybe nice for airliner training, but definitely not for the ordinary private pilot.

A 172 or warrior will be worlds more forgiving when you don't hit the correct speed, in contrast you have to fly the numbers rather correct to hit THE single speed spot on a SR20.

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On 5/22/2020 at 12:52 PM, kortopates said:

Good plan and very wise to always critique yourself. But I think sometimes we scare folks from banking in the pattern; especially when they want to standard rate turns in the pattern. So personally I have no problem "over" banking and not staying coordinated as long as we're keeping the wing unloaded. Instead for me and what I teach is: don't pull back on the yoke and don't skid in addition to don't get too slow.  I'll happily slip away as needed; especially on a short approach. And when we do need to recover from when we err and get too slow, PUSH first to recover as you are simultaneously adding power. Pitch is instantaneous, power is not.

The circle to land approach during IFR training scared me.  It was such a tight turn relative to VFR flying.  My CFII said to make sure the nose is pointed downward and never upward.  Basically what you're saying about not pulling back on the yoke.

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1 hour ago, rbridges said:

The circle to land approach during IFR training scared me.  It was such a tight turn relative to VFR flying.  My CFII said to make sure the nose is pointed downward and never upward.  Basically what you're saying about not pulling back on the yoke.

I am suspicious of circle to land minimums.  That is a very advanced procedure not for the faint of heart.  For my own use, circle to land is fine when ceilings are rather higher - eg at my home drome we have only IFR approaches to 6/24 from direction of 24 as a RNAV24.  Field elevation of 474, and LNAV min is 880 at ground altitude of 406ft.  Ok, but then circling mins are 920 at 500ft.  Normal pattern pattern altitude is 1300.  500 would be quite a low circling pattern even in VFR, but ok...but doing that right at mins in and out of the clouds almost...forget about it not for me.  For my own sake I won't do a circling approach if that would put me lower than a standard VFR pattern altitude.

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7 hours ago, MarkusM said:

I object. Having flown SR20ies I always found myself uncomfortable with it. The SR20 is quite low powered for its wings and there is not much forgiving in riding the envelope. The SR22 is much better due to the more power. Biggest trouble for me was to keep an eye on speed in the SR20, if I remember correctly the stall at bank was horror due to the clean laminar profile, something like 99 knots for 45 or 60 bank correct? You can get the SR20 slow, but only in quite stable wings level - once you bank, the stall speed goes through the roof. Maybe nice for airliner training, but definitely not for the ordinary private pilot.

A 172 or warrior will be worlds more forgiving when you don't hit the correct speed, in contrast you have to fly the numbers rather correct to hit THE single speed spot on a SR20.

WOW. I'm not sure what Cirrus you flew, but it certainly doesn't behave like any of the 200 or so that I have flown.

The stall speed for an SR20 at gross weight is only 56 knots. 65 knots with no flaps. At training weights those numbers are even lower. Traffic pattern speeds are essentially the same as any other fixed gear piston single trainer. 

The stall speed at a 60 degree bank angle is 90 clean, 81 with full flaps. It's such an unusual combination that you'd have to be doing mild aerobatic training to get anywhere near that number in normal flight. We don't even come close to it doing commercial pilot training maneuvers with poorly trained private pilots. In the more common bank angles of 30-45 degrees, the stall speed is still only 57-64 knots with full flaps, and 68-78 clean. 

A 172 that stalls at 50 knots clean & level, stalls at 70 knots clean in a 60 degree bank. So that's a 20 knot rise for the 60 degree bank angle. The Cirrus has a 25 knot rise. WOW. 5 KNOTS MORE. 

I've always found the stall characteristic of a Cirrus to be well-mannered, and more maneuverable than a Cessna. They are similar to a Cherokee in a stall, where the nose bobs and finally drops a bit, with no tendency to drop a wing suddenly like a 172. You have full aileron control in a stall, unlike a Cessna, where you need the rudder or you'll enter a spin quickly. 

If you were uncomfortable, you suffered from a poor introduction to the plane by the instructor.

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