six gear collapses & gear ups in one week

[Missile=Awesome]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

And yet many miss it.

One of our discussions about this a few months ago had a video of two guys landing gear up with the horn blaring very loudly. Every gear up that happens, happens with some kind of tech warning the pilot. So much for relying on tech.

We are not on the same page...

I speak not of a gear “horn” that is muted by noise canceling headsets..

I speak of a voice IN YOUR HEADSET repeating the phrase “Check Gear!”  “Check Gear!”...

Over and over again.

If you miss this throughout final, roundout and flare...

I submit you should NOT be flying an airplane PIC.

[cliffy]

I think one of the military services did some testing with a sultry female voice on audible warnings and though that that voice was more noticeable (caught ones attention) than a male voice in the warnings, 

[EricJ]

47 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I think one of the military services did some testing with a sultry female voice on audible warnings and though that that voice was more noticeable (caught ones attention) than a male voice in the warnings, 

My recollection is that there was a research study that showed a pilot's child's voice was the most likely to get through if there was task saturation going on.

 

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

My recollection is that there was a research study that showed a pilot's child's voice was the most likely to get through if there was task saturation going on.

 

Probably true IF the airplane was flown by only 1 pilot and if that pilot had kids.  Multi pilot airplanes however I think would be the norm. 

[carusoam]

Hmmmm...

How do we recognize... task saturation..?

Got any examples?

In the case of one rusty pilot I knew...

He tried to announce position in the traffic pattern, three times at key locations... midfield, turning base, turning final...

If any got skipped... task saturation was pretty high...

Is it mic fear, or just cog overload... or one causing the other...?

PP thoughts only not a cognitive therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

My choice for a gear up warning would not be a soothing voice... it would come from this guy... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Lee_Ermey

Enough to cause me to want to go around... immediately. 

[cliffy]

Always thought Ermey should make an alarm clock with him waking the troops (you) to get out of bed and hit the deck

They would have sold in the 100s of thousands. 

two selectable voices One soft for the easily offended and one in his Marine DI persona for the rest of us. 

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Is it mic fear, or just cog overload... or one causing the other...?

 Mostly I think it is fear of taking control of the situation Fear of the voice on the radio. Fear of doing something wrong and standing in front of the Feds. How many emergencies are there where we hear the pilot "asking" permission to do something he needs to do?

Never ask permission in an emergency. Declare it and do what you need to do. 

 

[PT20J]

Not claiming this procedure is foolproof, but it has worked for me (so far :-)

I tie putting the gear down to beginning final descent. That means downwind in the pattern just before flaps abeam the numbers, at the FAF or GS intercept on an approach, when beginning final descent on a straight in. In the pattern I do GUMP on downwind, base and final. On short final I always check the gear down light on the annunciator panel. You just can't land without descending and if you tie the gear extension to descent it's hard to overlook. I didn't invent this. I can't remember who said it -- might have been Ian Blair Fries -- "To go down, put the gear down."

Skip

 

[PT20J]

6 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Fear of doing something wrong and standing in front of the Feds.

It's been often pointed out that the FAA rarely requires paperwork after an emergency declaration unless some gross violation occurred.

I once declared an emergency due to a control malfunction, was cleared for a straight in, landed, exited the runway, shut down on the taxiway and requested ground control to walk back out on the active runway and pick up a piece of the airplane (it was a cleco stuck in the aileron that fell out when we landed), did so, fired up and taxied to the tiedown. Never heard a word from anyone at the FAA.

Skip

 

[cliffy]

 I too have had a few in big iron and small even into Class B wrong way landing and nothing ever came of it BUT most less experienced pilots don't realize that they are in control of the entire situation. ATC is there for traffic separation not to fly your airplane for you. 

To them its God on High over the radio, 

 

[steingar]

On 11/6/2020 at 2:23 PM, Mooneymite said:

“Always” having the gear down way before you need it seems like it very inefficient and is setting up for the day when you have to hold the gear to “keep your speed up” per tower request.  

I have this magic word if the tower asks me to speed up when I've dirtied the airframe.  It's "unable".  Admittedly, last time I had to use it was when a tower asked me to expedite my climb in my Piper Cherokee.

[kortopates]

This weeks Mooney incident addition to the list was an M20R landing after apparently its second approach at 5:45pm. It had to veer to miss a deer and took out some runway lights. I gotta believe the pilot came out with a much better outcome hitting some lights rather than a deer but of course these reports don't provide details.

Wonder if wildlife had anything to do with second approach? Supplement says "WILDLIFE AND GEESE ON & INVOF ARPT" I'd hate to be landing at dusk or right after in deer country because of this hazard, even though it is paved field.

At least no Mooney Gear up incidents reported over this past weekend!

Edited November 9, 2020 by kortopates

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

This weeks Mooney incident addition to the list was an M20R landing that after apparently second approach at 5:45pm had to veer to miss a deer and took out some runway lights. I gotta believe the pilot came out with a much better outcome hitting some lights rather than a deer but of course these reports provide no details.

Wonder if wildlife had anything to do with second approach? Supplement says "WILDLIFE AND GEESE ON & INVOF ARPT" I'd hate to be landing at dusk or right after in deer country because of this hazard, even though it is paved field.

At least no Mooney Gear up incidents reported over this past weekend!

A few years ago a buddy of mine did hit a deer on the runway at night.  No one was hurt (other than the deer, who was cleanly sliced in two by the landing gear) but it was a Very Big Deal since he was flying a Cirrus.  The Cirrus factory had to have engineers design a repair for the composite structure, then run detailed stress analysis etc to ensure that the repair would not alter V-speed and +/- g ratings of the airframe.   The repair design, testing and actual airframe repairs were very time consuming.

[cliffy]

Had a friend hit a deer in a Merlin. Bent the engine mount down and out 

[kortopates]

Very interesting twist this week with a very out of the ordinary incident. But first off, and most importantly no one got hurt in this one - just some aluminum. 

How many of you actually practice simulated engine outs? I do too - great practice and kudo's to whomever. But do any actually kill the engine to make it real? Apparently that's what happened here and we're only reading about it because after the set up the pilots where unable to make a runway and landed in a field. 

Now you'd expect a carbureted engine would start right back up soon as it had some fuel - but not this time. 

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:96:13292273201829::::P96_ENTRY_DATE,P96_MAKE_NAME,P96_FATAL_FLG:16-NOV-20,MOONEY

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/small-plane-crashes-near-newton-reservoir

Got to wonder if there is a lot more to the story on this one.

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

Very interesting twist this week with a very out of the ordinary incident. But first off, and most importantly no one got hurt in this one - just some aluminum. 

How many of you actually practice simulated engine outs? I do too - great practice and kudo's to whomever. But do any actually kill the engine to make it real? Apparently that's what happened here and we're only reading about it because after the set up the pilots where unable to make a runway and landed in a field. 

Now you'd expect a carbureted engine would start right back up soon as it had some fuel - but not this time. 

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:96:13292273201829::::P96_ENTRY_DATE,P96_MAKE_NAME,P96_FATAL_FLG:16-NOV-20,MOONEY

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/small-plane-crashes-near-newton-reservoir

Got to wonder if there is a lot more to the story on this one.

Sounds familiar... see if @hammdo Don recognizes the details...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

Questions

Was it wind milling or stopped?

Did they just use the key to turn it off or the mixture?

Will the engine wind mill if stopped with increasing airspeed?

If so did they try that? (used to do that a lot in a C150)

Were they aiming for the end of the runway or mid-field? 

Wx conditions, carb ice? 

Always lots of questions on this stuff

First guesses are usually wrong

The fleet diminishes again. 

[steingar]

Turning a simulated emergency into a real one is Darwin level stupidity.

[hammdo]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Sounds familiar... see if @hammdo Don recognizes the details...

Best regards,

-a-

Mine was a bit different - mine was humming along and just quit - like someone pulled the throttle - would not restart.

90° day, 36 gallons still in the tank. I do know how that feels though...

mine was 74562 - this one looks like 74507 - both B’s - hum...

interestingly, mine is not in that db...

-Don

 

[cliffy]

I always teach- "Always leave yourself and out!"

 

[kortopates]

9 hours ago, cliffy said:

Questions

Was it wind milling or stopped?

Did they just use the key to turn it off or the mixture?

Will the engine wind mill if stopped with increasing airspeed?

If so did they try that? (used to do that a lot in a C150)

Were they aiming for the end of the runway or mid-field? 

Wx conditions, carb ice? 

Always lots of questions on this stuff

First guesses are usually wrong

The fleet diminishes again. 

If you look at the handful or so of recent ADS-B snippets of flight tracks, there is a repetitive theme of short half hour flights in the same area between Logan and Preston. But the odd thing is they appear and end no where near an airport. Although it could be due to flying to low to stay in Ads-B contact but it leaves me curious as to the aircrafts home base. Unfortunately there was even a snippet of incident flight. 

Looking at the picture of the downed aircraft with overcast skies probably explains that from having to fly low to stay VMC and thus avoiding ads-b coverage. What we know from the snippets is that the plane was picked up in the same area at 6700' before where ground level of nearby LGU is 4457' so only roughly 2000' AGL - so apparently less than than that on this day. Which then really begs the question would a CFI and pilot really be practicing engine outs with limited ceilings? Hoping some one familiar with the area may come along and shed some light. 

But from the news article picture, we only see one blade with apparent damage; so probably stopped. I wondered about carb ice but if AGL altitude was pretty low to begin with, that would be very quick in likely cold dry air - I am skeptical. But as best as I can tell this is no where near an airport - about 15 miles from Logan UT airport. Its a mystery!  

[carusoam]

Big open field...

Engine out...

why would the gear be tucked so nicely away?

It just happened so quickly?

Any Chance of carb ice, under the clouds..?

PP thoughts that come to mind...

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

On 11/8/2020 at 1:49 PM, carusoam said:

Hmmmm...

How do we recognize... task saturation..?

Got any examples?

 

Yes. The closest I came was practicing power-off 180's for my commercial. I went to a rural airport where there is usually no traffic. In pattern practice I always raise the gear as in a normal takeoff, and then drop it as the first thing I do when I turn downwind (running GUMPS). For the power off 180 you are supposed to be in the downwind in landing configuration and then pull the throttle to idle when abeam the numbers. When I got up to pattern altitude and turned downwind there was another Mooney on the taxiway and he got on the radio obviously trying to figure out which direction I was landing, so I talked to him. About the middle of downwind he reversed course on the taxiway and was going the wrong way, obviously confused, so I talked to him again. Then it turned out there were two or three people who had pulled a powered hang glider out of a hangar and were finishing the assembly just a few feet north of the approach end (east-west runway) so I spent some time trying to figure out if they were going to suddenly start a NORDO takeoff without looking up. I did my turn to base and turn to final keeping track of all this going on and two unpredictable aircraft moving towards the approach end of the runway. Did my base to final and was on short final and about 50' above the runway with the power at idle when I ran a final gear check and realized it was not down. I did a go around and got out of there, as I have said many times, too much going on in the pattern. After that, I never practiced power off 180's without either a safety pilot on board or at an airport where no one at all was operating.

That's how it happens. Get in the pattern have something throw you off your routine and just forget.

[Missile=Awesome]

 How about this for task saturation.  I have related this sad ordeal multiple times on Mooneyspace...

Flew an hour under hood with an instructor that was dating MY instructor that was sleeping in the back of my E.  Returned to CID.  Offloaded boyfriend.  Flying Flight review second hour.  Completed all phases of flight including a simulated engine out.  Returned to unfamiliar airport (Iowa City) with runway 36 (now gone) that had a large displaced area on north end.  Doing touch and go’s.  I am tired as I have now flow two hours with an hour under the hood and another doing slow flight, stalls etc...  Third touch and go as I am turning to downwind instructor pulls power.  Says “what are you going to do”?  I say fly a tight pattern and land after displaced runway. Fly tight base turn to final and she says “beautiful” while I am in the flare...Crunch...Gear up.  i told her to “get out” after shutting off fuel and master as she was sitting there.  She ran away from plane...Wanted me to say I was “alone”.  That was my experience with task saturation...

It was a damn fine flare though

Bought a headset annunciation “Check Gear”! In headset right after the incident.

”It” happens...

[carusoam]

Great examples of task saturation gents!

Thanks for sharing the details...

Anyone else?
 

I had somebody describing how they used to cook dinners... how everything was completed at the same time so it could all be served hot...

Everything required different cooking times, some in the oven, others on the stove, and something outside on the grill... 

It made a great example of task saturation when he described how he couldn’t do that any longer without some practice...

I immediately thought of this thread... 

And the time the buns got over baked in the oven...  what’s that annoying timer going off for...?

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

 How about this for task saturation.  I have related this sad ordeal multiple times on Mooneyspace...
Flew an hour under hood with an instructor that was dating MY instructor that was sleeping in the back of my E.  Returned to CID.  Offloaded boyfriend.  Flying Flight review second hour.  Completed all phases of flight including a simulated engine out.  Returned to unfamiliar airport (Iowa City) with runway 36 (now gone) that had a large displaced area on north end.  Doing touch and go’s.  I am tired as I have now flow two hours with an hour under the hood and another doing slow flight, stalls etc...  Third touch and go as I am turning to downwind instructor pulls power.  Says “what are you going to do”?  I say fly a tight pattern and land after displaced runway. Fly tight base turn to final and she says “beautiful” while I am in the flare...Crunch...Gear up.  i told her to “get out” after shutting off fuel and master as she was sitting there.  She ran away from plane...Wanted me to say I was “alone”.  That was my experience with task saturation...
It was a damn fine flare though
Bought a headset annunciation “Check Gear”! In headset right after the incident.
”It” happens...

Do missiles not have a gear horn? I know the J does.