Way too early, but IO-360 A1A is kaput

[Nukemzzz]

3 minutes ago, J0nathan225 said:

Broad question I'm sure, but what did the overhaul run you and what did it include?  @Nukemzzz and @Moonbat

Mine wasn't actually an overhaul.  The engine had 300hrs on it when the case cracked.  Installed a new Superior case, new cam, DLC tappets (the cam and roller was fine, but didn't want my engine to look like OPs one day).  Completed a previously missed AD on a gear. Installed an Oil Filter housing and filter.  Then there is a long list of stuff that had to be replaced as part of the reassembly.  Came in right at $14,000.  America's Aircraft Engines.  I'll tell you in about a month if the engine runs well I hope.  lol

[chrixxer]

On 5/14/2020 at 3:17 PM, jetdriven said:

Yep that’s how they go.  The lifter face spalls, which is no longe smooth.  Then it wears down the cam.  
were you doing oil analysis?  Iron numbers tell the tale. 

According to Mike Busch last night (EAA WINGS seminar on annual inspections, focusing on a Lycoming O-320 that wasn't making minimum static RPM and had this exact issue), oil analysis won't catch the intake lobe wearing down like that: The pieces come off too quickly, and are too large to get absorbed into the oil. Any indication would be in the filter. 

Anecdotally, that was my experience (IO-360-A1A). 3RM has been on oil analysis consistently since 2008, including right before I had a valve lift check that caught that intake lobes were worn too far. There was no indication of it in the trends. My iron (29) was slightly above universal averages (20), but no mention of that in the Blackstone write-up, for an oil change in March, 50 hours before the engine was yanked for overhaul, and with 43 hours since the last oil change (Blackstone did note in an earlier oil analysis that my 59^‡ hour oil analysis showed 52, but also noted "universal averages are taken after ~30 hours of oil use [and considering] this interval was about twice as long as that, some extra iron (from steel) doesn't look troublesome as that metal tends to track with use." (They recommended "follow up in 40 hours for an update.")

‡ Was supposed to get an oil change before launching on a trip to St. Louis but my A&P was chasing other gremlins and didn't get to it. Was going to get it changed in St. Louis but the A&P I found there likewise fell down a different rabbit hole and ran out of time. :/ 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

That is exactly how everyone starts their engines, right?  No Mooney I’ve seen has a pre-oiler system installed.  

Spinning the engine with spark plugs removed (thus zero compression) seems ok to my engineering eye.   

Yes, but on a freshly overhauled engine that has been sitting for who knows how long since it was last run at the overhauler.  Motoring the engine over to establish oil pressure just invites unwanted wear while the propeller, governor, oil cooler, lines, etc. which were not installed during the test run at the overhauler are filled with oil.

It seems to me that using a pressure pot to fill these systems is a better option.

Clarence

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Just read in a Lycoming service bulletin and it said to do just this to prime the engine with oil after overhaul or oil cooler change. However, using an external source to prime the system is a better option if available.

Assuming proper assembly lube was used when assembling the engine and it has not sat for an extremely long time (JMHO >6 months) since it was assembled I find it hard to believe that spinning the engine without spark plugs to prime the oil system would cause any damage.  You are rotating the engine with the rotating parts unloaded.

Coincidentally Lycoming sells engines and parts to repair the damaged ones.

Clarence

[Moonbat]

Engine was overhauled in the local shop. I really wanted to see the entire process myself, and help where possible. We also want to support the local FBO during the Wuhan virus times. The re-assembly included pre-lubricating ALL components by hand. The engine sat for only 6 days waiting for a couple of fittings that were left off the shipment from the crankcase overhauler. 

I’ll answer the “cost” question in detail later, but it included the crank case, new cam shaft, overhauled cylinders, overhauled pistons, rings, valves, seats, push rods, lifters, turbo, fuel servo, governor,  exhaust tubes, replace one Bendix with Slick, replace other Bendix with Surefly electronic ignition, overhaul 3-blade MT12 composite prop, new baffling, sand/paint engine mount, new engine mount rubber. The cost of all of this with shipping, parts, labor will come in about $35K. 

Ran the engine today! One problem with setting the timing on the Surefly was the only issue we had that prevented a first time firing. Once corrected, whoosh... and off we went to begin break-in. 3 separate 4 minutes runs with the cowling off, cooled the engine to 100F after each time. Looking for leaks and weeps and any abnormal temps or pressures anywhere. Most significant finding was an over pressure on the fuel pressure. It was hovering around the 30psi mark, which is the limit between the normal range and the alarm range. It did not fluctuate with RPM or MP. The FF was normal and looked “about right” for the various power settings. We bled out a bit of air from the fuel line, but the pressure remained around the 30psi mark. More investigation required. 

Then we cowled up the engine, and did another run-up including a 2000 RPM test, then a full take off power test, then the first flight following guidance to run at high RPM and 75% power for 20 minutes, then varying power settings for the remainder of the first hour - all full rich mixtures. 60%-85% in slow, five minute intervals, then back down and on in for a high power landing. Flown at 3.5K and 70F OAT. Slowing for landing was the hardest part, even with speed brakes. EGT/CHT were very even throughout. CHTs were generally 308-330, all recorded on the EDM900. More break-in flying tomorrow and I hope over the Labor Day weekend too.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Moonbat

[Ragsf15e]

36 minutes ago, Moonbat said:

Engine was overhauled in the local shop. I really wanted to see the entire process myself, and help where possible. We also want to support the local FBO during the Wuhan virus times. The re-assembly included pre-lubricating ALL components by hand. The engine sat for only 6 days waiting for a couple of fittings that were left off the shipment from the crankcase overhauler. 

I’ll answer the “cost” question in detail later, but it included the crank case, new cam shaft, overhauled cylinders, overhauled pistons, rings, valves, seats, push rods, lifters, turbo, fuel servo, governor,  exhaust tubes, replace one Bendix with Slick, replace other Bendix with Surefly electronic ignition, overhaul 3-blade MT12 composite prop, new baffling, sand/paint engine mount, new engine mount rubber. The cost of all of this with shipping, parts, labor will come in about $35K. 

Ran the engine today! One problem with setting the timing on the Surefly was the only issue we had that prevented a first time firing. Once corrected, whoosh... and off we went to begin break-in. 3 separate 4 minutes runs with the cowling off, cooled the engine to 100F after each time. Looking for leaks and weeps and any abnormal temps or pressures anywhere. Most significant finding was an over pressure on the fuel pressure. It was hovering around the 30psi mark, which is the limit between the normal range and the alarm range. It did not fluctuate with RPM or MP. The FF was normal and looked “about right” for the various power settings. We bled out a bit of air from the fuel line, but the pressure remained around the 30psi mark. More investigation required. 

Then we cowled up the engine, and did another run-up including a 2000 RPM test, then a full take off power test, then the first flight following guidance to run at high RPM and 75% power for 20 minutes, then varying power settings for the remainder of the first hour - all full rich mixtures. 60%-85% in slow, five minute intervals, then back down and on in for a high power landing. Flown at 3.5K and 70F OAT. Slowing for landing was the hardest part, even with speed brakes. EGT/CHT were very even throughout. CHTs were generally 308-330, all recorded on the EDM900. More break-in flying tomorrow and I hope over the Labor Day weekend too.

Fwiw, I replaced my mechanical fuel pump a few months back and the new one has behaved as you described.  30psi on the ground, maybe 27 at full power airborne.  after about 10-15 hours it’s more consistently at 29 ish in the green and not 31 in the red during ground ops.

[Yetti]

What year was the old cam?

[jetdriven]

On 5/13/2020 at 9:09 PM, Ragsf15e said:

To your original question... I would get it overhauled to new specs.  I’d also make sure I got either roller lifters or dlc lifters.  I think the only way to get roller lifters is to get a factory rebuilt or new engine.  Dlc lifters can come during a regular overhaul, I think.

Id also take this time to redo the wiring to/from the VR and the field wire from the VR through the master, to your alternator.

Maybe fuel lines?  Maybe new throttle, prop or mixture cables if they’re old?

Of course that’s just an opinion and I’m not even an A&P.  Good luck with your choices!

Not quite. I have a 600 hour since new roller case in my shop 

[ArtVandelay]

Fwiw, I replaced my mechanical fuel pump a few months back and the new one has behaved as you described.  30psi on the ground, maybe 27 at full power airborne.  after about 10-15 hours it’s more consistently at 29 ish in the green and not 31 in the red during ground ops.

Mine did this as well, after 25 hours it settles down and no longer triggers an alert on the JPI (30 psi).

[Moonbat]

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

What year was the old cam?

The engine was last overhauled in 2006. Assuming the CAM shaft was part of that overhaul. Without digging further (which I will do later) that's the best answer I can give right now. 

[Moonbat]

10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Fwiw, I replaced my mechanical fuel pump a few months back and the new one has behaved as you described.  30psi on the ground, maybe 27 at full power airborne.  after about 10-15 hours it’s more consistently at 29 ish in the green and not 31 in the red during ground ops.

Thanks - very helpful comment. I'll pass it on to the mechanic this morning. 

[Moonbat]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Mine did this as well, after 25 hours it settles down and no longer triggers an alert on the JPI (30 psi).

Thanks - very helpful comment. I'll pass it on to the mechanic this morning. 

[Yetti]

12 hours ago, Moonbat said:

The engine was last overhauled in 2006. Assuming the CAM shaft was part of that overhaul. Without digging further (which I will do later) that's the best answer I can give right now. 

That year would be consistent with the less than idea metallurgy on cams theory.  1990s through early 2000

[carusoam]

If the high FP continues to be a challenge...

There is a thread or two around here that cover the details of what to do next...

Odd that it exceeds the limit, but there were many that came out this way...
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[flyer338]

Jerry, my 201 has a pre-Oiler installed. The cost is 5.4 lbs. of useful load. I use it before the first flight of the day. On my previous Mooney, I always filled the oil filter with oil before installing it. However, the pre-Oiler does nothing for the camshaft.

The Lycoming O-360 oils the camshaft lobes with splash oil from the crankshaft. It requires 1,000 rpm to get enough splash to oil the cam lobes. My practice is to avoid idle speeds below 1,000 rpm, even if I have to use more braking - brake pads are comparatively cheap.

I am also a firm believer in the value of multi-grade oil during cold starts. Cold starts, even in Las Vegas, are when the majority of engine wear takes place.

[Gary0747]

What was your static max rpm before and after overhaul?

[Moonbat]

Judging from take off data taken from the EDM930, both before and after the O/H on both the engine and prop, it was easy to achieve 2700 RPM, given the turbo-normalizer and low density altitudes prevalent at my home airport. In my particular case, I don't think that there were many clues to be gained from the static RPM measurement.  

[Gary0747]

The static rpm is not the take off rpm. It is the max rpm you get while stationary on the ramp. It is almost always less than 2700 rpm. As I understand it happens when the governor puts the prop on the fine pitch mechanical stops trying to get to 2700 rpm. Assuming the Mechanical stops on the prop have not been moved before and after overhaul of the engine.max static rpm should be a relative measure of the power being produced by the engine.    You would have to do this at the same altitude Airport barometric pressure and temperature to have a valid comparison.  

[M20F]

On 9/4/2020 at 10:44 PM, Yetti said:

That year would be consistent with the less than idea metallurgy on cams theory.  1990s through early 2000

This.  I did mine in 2015 and we actively looked for a good metallurgy cam.  In 2018 the case cracked.  Cam was shot when we opened (about 300hrs).  Suspicion is we didn’t get the cam we expected.  

Knock on wood everything is wonderful since then.