Flight Instructing in the Era of Covid-19

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I can ensure you that flying in chem gear is a horrible experience.

I bet.

Have you been doing that?

[kpaul]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I bet.

Have you been doing that?

Thank goodness no!  We used to train for it while flying C-130s.  We had to be able to operate in a chemical warfare environment.

[bonal]

Difficult choices during difficult times. Saw a study showing how short the half life of this damn virus is when exposed to heat humidity and UV light.  Now when the summer heat returns which is soon to come I can't think of a safer environment than the cockpit of a Mooney that has been sitting in the sun for a half hour or so. We have been conditioned to accept that we have to give up our per suit of happiness and I know these are not easy choices but at some point we are going have to take this thing head on and stop hiding and hoping for some scientific miracle that may never come.

[donkaye]

7 minutes ago, bonal said:

Difficult choices during difficult times. Saw a study showing how short the half life of this damn virus is when exposed to heat humidity and UV light.  Now when the summer heat returns which is soon to come I can't think of a safer environment than the cockpit of a Mooney that has been sitting in the sun for a half hour or so. We have been conditioned to accept that we have to give up our per suit of happiness and I know these are not easy choices but at some point we are going have to take this thing head on and stop hiding and hoping for some scientific miracle that may never come.

I'm not concerned with the physical environment of the airplane, which I feel comfortable disinfecting.  I'm uncomfortable with the state of the person in the next seat over.  I can't control where they have been or with whom they have come in contact.

[bonal]

Then I guess we will just have to wait until there isn't a single case left in the world either by personal choice or government decree 

i know totally stinks what's happened here 

[carusoam]

The sun may be shining once on the other side...

1) If you recover from the Covid experience... 

2) You may be free to roam the planet again...

3) Keep in mind... it has not yet been proven that you are naturally immune from getting Covid-19 again...

4) Or for how long this new found immunity can last...

5) The antibodies are of great Interest.... these are the things the body develops to build its defense...

6) It may be possible to borrow antibodies from somebody else...  no miracles needed... just some qualified medical technology...

7) Lots of science involved... manufacturing technology... and good business management... all stuff this country has... and the world has as well...

8) While awaiting news regarding the development of the vaccine... keep an eye on the news regarding antibodies... 

PP thoughts only, not a pharmaceutical commercial development engineer...

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

Nice thoughts Anthony but I have a huge problem with number two once upon a time this was a free country not long ago. I don't think we can last much longer.  And let's say science comes up with a solution in the next year or so are you suggesting we will have mandated testing, mandatory vaccinations not the kind of world I'm looking forward to   At least Flight instruction is permitted as an essential service but as I said before it's a difficult choice in difficult times.  Sorry Don, I know this isn't easy for you, good luck 

Edited May 11, 2020 by bonal
Sensitive subject

[aviatoreb]

These people look pretty packed in there.  The guy taking the picture looks none too happy.

[Pete M]

I'm 56. I get in the damn airplane. I taught through the beginning of this. State shut us down. Got a call last week. Owner wants to start up again. Wanted to know if I was cool with it. Hell yes. If you're older, vulnerable, then wait it out.

[N9201A]

I can ensure you that flying in chem gear is a horrible experience.

Doing ANYTHING in chem gear is pretty unpleasant, but beats not having it if you need it.

[kpaul]

Just now, N9201A said:

Doing ANYTHING in chem gear is pretty unpleasant, but beats not having it if you need it.

That's true.

I have too many days/weeks wearing that stuff, also had numerous shots for Anthrax.  Packed it around for months at a time.  It was tough turning wrenches on F-16 in full MOP gear, your hands didn't even fit into some of the access doors with the gloves and jacket on, and the visibility was always a challenge.

At least when flying in the gear we had blowers hooked up to the helmet and mask, it helped keeping from fogging up and going IMC inside the mask.

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

These people look pretty packed in there.  The guy taking the picture looks none too happy.

This guy is an MD who apparently felt good enough about the packed flight to choose to get on it but decided to use social medial to bitch about it either way. He’s not to be held accountable for his personal choices, that’s the airlines job. 
-Robert 

[aviatoreb]

30 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

This guy is an MD who apparently felt good enough about the packed flight to choose to get on it but decided to use social medial to bitch about it either way. He’s not to be held accountable for his personal choices, that’s the airlines job. 
-Robert 

That is interesting. We see different things I guess.  I see a full plane.  You see a doctor to blame for putting out information. I found the picture to be relevant to this discussion.

[RobertGary1]

17 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That is interesting. We see different things I guess.  I see a full plane.  You see a doctor to blame for putting out information. I found the picture to be relevant to this discussion.

I see a dr who used his medical judgment to assess the situation and determine he wanted to get on the flight and then complain about it later. It’s a personal responsibility for thing for me. If you don’t feel safe don’t go; don’t get upset with someone else. 
 

-Robert 

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I see a dr who used his medical judgment to assess the situation and determine he wanted to get on the flight and then complain about it later. It’s a personal responsibility for thing for me. If you don’t feel safe don’t go; don’t get upset with someone else. 
 

-Robert 

As already made clear, it is obvious we look at the same photo and see different things.  I see an interesting photo.  You see the guy who took the photo.  I don't see any reason the photo should not have been taken or some betrayal for having taken it.

Edited May 12, 2020 by aviatoreb

[gacoon]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'm not concerned with the physical environment of the airplane, which I feel comfortable disinfecting.  I'm uncomfortable with the state of the person in the next seat over.  I can't control where they have been or with whom they have come in contact.

And that gets to the heart of the matter, could not agree more. 

[jaylw314]

8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

That makes sense.  Just saying, I don't believe my blue-mask system that a lot of us have from Mountain high is a pandemic safe-measure is all I am saying, even though at first blush it might seem intuitively to be so.  Anyway I had the same thought, that maybe wearing an O2mask is the way to go.

Just to be clear to all--ALL oxygen conserving systems like rebreathers, reservoirs, intermittent demand, and so on, by definition are NOT protective since the oxygen only takes up (about) 20% of each breath.  Other 80% MUST come from the external environment.

Only emergency-type 100% oxygen supplies (like the kind used in case of smoke and fire) do not require air from outside.  And like pointed out before, you'll run through your O2 supply pretty quick doing that.

Any type of foam or cloth filter is not going to protect you from aerosols or airborne particles.

That being said, we still do not have a clear idea how significant aerosol/airborne transmission is compared to the typically more prominent contact and droplet mechanisms.  Based on what I've seen so far, I speculate that aerosol/airborne transmission is a relatively uncommon (but still possible) means of transmission.  Hence the recommendation to only use N95 masks when working with known infected people, but only regular face coverings otherwise.

In terms of flight instruction, I would be FAR more worried about contact transmission than airborne transmission.  I suppose that risk can be mitigated, but it just cannot be reduced to a reasonably low level when you're in that close proximity to someone.  You can wear all the masks and respirators you want, but at some point your going to have to take off your shirt.  Heck, even if you wear a protective hazmat suit, at some point you have to touch it to remove it.

I just don't think it's going to be possible to safely provide flight instruction without spreading the virus further, until we have a vaccine or a significant percentage of the population has had the virus.  Remember, even if you don't think it's a big risk to yourself (and to be fair, it may not be), your actions will abet the spread of the virus to other vulnerable people

[tmo]

8 hours ago, bonal said:

mandatory vaccinations not the kind of world I'm looking forward to

Well, most, if not all (from a statistically significant POV) the civilized world has been vaccinated for a number of diseases, including some that are believed to be extinct. Some even get vaccinated every year, against what medicine believes will be the prevalent flu strain of the year. And those who choose to travel to places off the beaten path often get additional vaccinations as part of their pre-trip preparations. So what exactly would change if the only thing between "then" and "now" in the context of COVID-19 would be a vaccine?

Edited May 12, 2020 by tmo

[Bob E]

1 hour ago, tmo said:

Well, most, if not all (from a statistically significant POV) the civilized world has been vaccinated for a number of diseases, including some that are believed to be extinct. Some even get vaccinated every year, against what medicine believes will be the prevalent flu strain of the year. And those who choose to travel to places off the beaten path often get additional vaccinations as part of their pre-trip preparations. So what exactly would change if the only thing between "then" and "now" in the context of COVID-19 would be a vaccine?

Just for fun, here's a Supreme Court decision from 1905 regarding mandatory vaccination.  It's still good law.  See the highlighted parts.

Jacobson v Commonwealth of Massachusetts.pdf

[tmo]

Thank you, Bob; that is in fact in support of mandatory vaccinations, I didn't miss anything, did I?

[Ibra]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

In terms of flight instruction, I would be FAR more worried about contact transmission than airborne transmission.  I suppose that risk can be mitigated, but it just cannot be reduced to a reasonably low level when you're in that close proximity to someone.  

Yes that is the nightmare, we had to think about all bits that needs to be cleaned and not touched in school fleet from workaround to handing the keys and putting covers/locks, you end up with jumbo jet checklist, so you just have to go with main 5 big items and take chances on others, if you assume the other crew has virus it is way more risky than flying in the packed commercial flight sent by EB or even working with sick person in hospital/home...

Taking door off the Mooney and flying it at 90kts will not do it, but a tandem conversion to T6 style and slide the canopy may do it 
 

11 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'm not concerned with the physical environment of the airplane, which I feel comfortable disinfecting.  I'm uncomfortable with the state of the person in the next seat over.  I can't control where they have been or with whom they have come in contact.

For students ab-initio/commercial, crew have less control on how the flying can be run, although honestly not much hurry and pressure on this given where airlines are at the moment, for sure business can going slowly & safely, other way is to bring back some teaching in Cubs, Tiger Moths and Stearmans (one chief pilot I know only fly dual in Tiger/Stearman now, this may help with covid19 and healthy for pilot skill in the long run ) there is also some time in simulator where "things can be controlled", not sure how this goes under FAA? (under European EASA rules one can't count simulator hours for many trainings, say for PPL, but discussions are under the way for this & next year to have at least some few hours)

For private owners & instructors, still a hard balance but I would guess less risky as instructor/owner have more control on who you fly with and under what conditions.... 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Ibra

[takair]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

Yes that is the nightmare, we had to think about all bits that needs to be cleaned and not touched in school fleet from workaround to handing the keys and putting covers/locks, you end up with jumbo jet checklist, so you just have to go with main 5 big items and take chances on others, if you assume the other crew has virus it is way more risky than flying in the packed commercial flight sent by EB or even working with sick person in hospital/home...

Taking door off the Mooney and flying it at 90kts will not do it, but a tandem conversion to T6 style and slide the canopy may do it 
 

For students ab-initio/commercial, crew have less control on how the flying can be run, although honestly not much hurry and pressure on this given where airlines are at the moment, for sure business can going slowly & safely, other way is to bring back some teaching in Cubs, Tiger Moths and Stearmans (one chief pilot I know only fly dual in Tiger/Stearman now, this may help with covid19 and healthy for pilot skill in the long run ) there is also some time in simulator where "things can be controlled", not sure how this goes under FAA? (under European EASA rules one can't count simulator hours for many trainings, say for PPL, but discussions are under the way for this & next year to have at least some few hours)

For private owners & instructors, still a hard balance but I would guess less risky as instructor/owner have more control on who you fly with and under what conditions.... 

In another thread somebody suggested using a simulator for instrument proficiency.  I called the local Red Bird school, but the problem is that I have not been checked out in it so I would need about an hour with their instructor in the sim.  In this case I may be better off using a. Safety pilot who I know vs the instructor who is constantly exposed to students.  Wish I had done the checkout sooner, but it was never a problem finding someone to fly with for some flight time.

[tmo]

Or perhaps look for a different provider - perhaps one that will let you do some online familiarization with the sim and take your money.  I mean, what will you possibly break on a sim, come on, you're a licensed pilot.

[Ibra]

54 minutes ago, takair said:

In another thread somebody suggested using a simulator for instrument proficiency.  I called the local Red Bird school, but the problem is that I have not been checked out in it so I would need about an hour with their instructor in the sim.

Is that IPC rules that does not allow you to jump solo and log 6 IAP to be off the hook? or is it the provider asking for 1h checkout to be able to use their simulator?
For the latter, surely there is a way for them to get someone familiar with an instructor while maintaining X feet of social distancing?
Unless those simulators are real black-boxes that you need 3rd person in middle to handle connection setup...

I take it from @kpaul and @bradp that these will not work in real flying (even unsafe unless you have trained for) but may do the job in simulators?


 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Ibra

[takair]

35 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Is that IPC rules that does not allow you to jump solo and log 6 IAP to be off the hook? or is it the provider asking for 1h checkout to be able to use their simulator?
For the latter, surely there is a way for them to get someone familiar with an instructor while maintaining X feet of social distancing?
Unless those simulators are real black-boxes that you need 3rd person in middle to handle connection setup...

I take it from @kpaul and @bradp that these will not work in real flying (even unsafe unless you have trained for) but may do the job in simulators?


 

 

It is simply to teach you to use the simulator.  It is an enclosed simulator, so no way around it in this case.  One time deal...