Considering Co-ownership

[pevanscfi]

I am wondering if anyone has any success or horror stories about co-owning a early model Mooney. I am a lapsed pilot, thinking about getting recurrent with the goal of taking our family of three on cross country trips for vacations and to visit extended family which are spread all over the US. Early model M20E-G's seem like they are a great fit for the mission.

Weighing the costs of renting vs owning, I think I could more easily hit the break even point if I was not the only one putting hours on between annuals. It would probably also make it easier to justify the hanger cost at the airport only 5 min down the road from me, rather than keeping it at some of the cheaper fields that are +45 min out of town. This would also be the first aircraft I would own, and I think there would be value in a partner with more experience in managing ownership.

If anyone is open to considering co-ownership BTW, I am looking in the Metro ATL area, preferably out of KRYY.

Edited May 4, 2020 by pevanscfi

[Rwsavory]

I co-owned our C from 2012, when we bought it together, until 2019 when plans changed and I bought my partner out amicably.  He had been a long-time Mooney owner.  We got along (and still do!).  It was nice having someone to share the burden of performing and arranging maintenance, in addition to getting things "half-price."  I think that agreeing about scheduling and making sure that each partner is on the same page money-wise are the two biggest contributors to success.   

[RobertGary1]

The issue I found is that anyone who has the resources to properly own a share of a plane just buys a plane. You need to find someone who can basically afford to buy a plane themselves but wants a partner to hang out with or keep the plane flying. A couple years ago my 1000 SFNEW engine came apart and set me back $40K  (no usable core). Can your partner write a check for 1/2 that?

-Robert

[Boilermonkey]

I've been in a part of a M20C three-party partnership and it has been great.  It's really important to have a well written agreement (not been an issue for me, but a friend had a partner die and that's a mess if not spelled out ahead of time).   It's also important to have similar expectations on upgrades and costs.  We have an imbalance of who likes to work versus fly the airplane....that's not a bad thing, but it's important to have not only a hourly reserve to account for people who fly more and a maintenance credit for people who work on the airplane to give them equality for the time put in.  Happy to share our accounting of how we do that.

[pevanscfi]

Just now, Boilermonkey said:

I've been in a part of a M20C three-party partnership and it has been great.  It's really important to have a well written agreement (not been an issue for me, but a friend had a partner die and that's a mess if not spelled out ahead of time).   It's also important to have similar expectations on upgrades and costs.  We have an imbalance of who likes to work versus fly the airplane....that's not a bad thing, but it's important to have not only a hourly reserve to account for people who fly more and a maintenance credit for people who work on the airplane to give them equality for the time put in.  Happy to share our accounting of how we do that.

If you have an example agreement that would be helpful I am sure. Any tips on how to find potential partners?

[OR75]

a partnership is really a roll of a dice

 Honestly best option is either full ownership or get a membership in a flying club that has a high performance aircraft for rent (Cirrus or Mooney or ...) and not just trainers.   Those are usually available to rent for taking trips.   

[cferr59]

Partnership can work, but you have to see things the same way.  I would say the best deal would be to partner with someone who has an A&P.  

[Andy95W]

2 minutes ago, cferr59 said:

Partnership can work, but you have to see things the same way.  I would say the best deal would be to partner with someone who has an A&P.  

But be careful that he doesn’t get abused just because he’s an A&P.  I used to be that half of a partnership in an Aztec.  For the first few years it was great.  Never a scheduling issue and we mostly split the work 50/50.

As my partner got busier with his family (understandable) I ended up being his mechanic in order to keep his wife happy.  Then when the wife no longer wanted to be a part of airplane ownership, the airplane had to get sold.  That sucked.

I’m still very good friends with him, which is the one saving grace to this story.

[laytonl]

I owned a Mooney with a partner for six years.  Our partnership worked well, no major issues.  We used the AOPA co-owner form as a template for our agreement however we managed the agreement fairly loosely except for the financial components (required monthly fee, per hour rates, and upgrades.).
 

Scheduling was the easiest issue.  We emailed each other with major trip plans and texted other times such as ‘I’m using the plane saturday morning for a couple of hours.”  I had an emergency trip pop up one evening and couldn’t get in touch with my partner.  I called the FBO and they said he was doing Touch and goes.  I told the FBO to call him and let him know I had an emergency and needed the plane in 20 minutes.  When I got the airport my partner had fueled, oiled, and preflighted the airplane and was waiting on the ramp to help me load up. Good guy.

we eventually sold the airplane due to the partners age and I bought another Mooney.

 

Lee

[Guest]

Most A&P’s don’t make enough money to own an airplane because the work for Mooney owners who are reputed to be very frugal with their money.

Clarence

[DonMuncy]

Mooney owners frugal? The very idea! 

[MooneyMitch]

Just now, M20Doc said:

Most A&P’s don’t make enough money to own an airplane because the work for Mooney owners who are reputed to be very frugal with their money.

Clarence

Such polite words !!

[Guest]

Just now, MooneyMitch said:

Such polite words !!

The new kinder and gentler me!

Clarence

[cferr59]

6 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

But be careful that he doesn’t get abused just because he’s an A&P.  I used to be that half of a partnership in an Aztec.  For the first few years it was great.  Never a scheduling issue and we mostly split the work 50/50.

As my partner got busier with his family (understandable) I ended up being his mechanic in order to keep his wife happy.  Then when the wife no longer wanted to be a part of airplane ownership, the airplane had to get sold.  That sucked.

I’m still very good friends with him, which is the one saving grace to this story.

I see how that could be a problem, but it could be mitigated as well.  For example, if you are doing all the work, he needs to pay for all the parts.  Or, he pays half the normal hourly rate for the work.  As I'm sure you understand,  it shouldn't be a free ride.

[MIm20c]

I’m looking to move from sole ownership to two partnerships over the next year, a long body and a RV-6 or 7.  Unlikely both will be gone at the same time and will provide a nice combo going forward. Now if the engine nukes on both around the same time my wife will not be a happy camper...

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, cferr59 said:

I see how that could be a problem, but it could be mitigated as well.  For example, if you are doing all the work, he needs to pay for all the parts.  Or, he pays half the normal hourly rate for the work.  As I'm sure you understand,  it shouldn't be a free ride.

I like the idea.  The engine is up for overhaul, you buy it and I’ll install it!

Clarence

[MikeOH]

I rented for decades and thought many times about partnerships.  But, I think finding good partners is like finding good tenants...hard to do and very painful if a poor choice is made.  Plus, one of the big downsides of renting is scheduling...partnerships suffer the same especially if there are more than one other partner...every fourth year you get the plane for Christmas???  Or, Labor Day weekend?  In the end you still need to have enough money for large unexpected expenses; sure it's shared but don't think entering a partnership can be done without a fair amount of capital.  Finally, are your partners of similar financial means?  I had a friend who had to get out of a partnership after his partners, with more income, wanted to upgrade... he couldn't afford it.  By the time I was in a good financial position I decided I just wanted to be a sole owner. There's nothing like getting off work and deciding on an absolute whim to take flight without checking with ANYONE! 

[carusoam]

On the scale from 1 to 8...

1) Renting is bad... I’d have to move just to be close to a rental Mooney...

2) Club ownership... is a great idea... dozens of owners... spreading the cost...   moving again to be near....

3) Partnership owning... happens a lot around here... some are silent partners... the silent ones are not on MS.  

4) Secret partners... there is always that guy who seems to have an expensive plane, and is retired... and his lovely wife still works...

5) To learn about partnerships... check out AOPA... they have all kinds of stuff related to partnerships...

6) When you were growing up... how did you feel about lending your stuff out... some of those same uneasy feelings come back... only the dollar values are much higher, and the safety issues run much deeper...

7) airplanes are typically long term arrangements... the longer you own them the lower the overall cost... a short term ownership is going to be extremely expensive...

8) It is tough being married to a plane... and a plane partner too....

PP thoughts only, not a marriage counselor...

Best regards,

-a-

[shawnd]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

 There's nothing like getting off work and deciding on an absolute whim to take flight without checking with ANYONE! 

+1 - not having to worry about if someone else has the plane or the school is now closed b/c its 5 PM is beautiful gift. Skies clear, got all work done, lets go flying!

[Lance Link]

It is magnificent only having to pay half of the expenses.  But the person matters the most.  If it’s not someone you know well  make sure someone you know well does.  Try Scott Williams esq in Camarillo for help.  Good luck!

[MikeOH]

25 minutes ago, shawnd said:

+1 - not having to worry about if someone else has the plane or the school is now closed b/c its 5 PM is beautiful gift. Skies clear, got all work done, lets go flying!

Nor worrying about if something broke when the last guy flew it...and didn't squawk it.  And, all the adjustments and instruments/radios are EXACTLY how you left them.

[shawnd]

Nor worrying about if something broke when the last guy flew it...and didn't squawk it.  And, all the adjustments and instruments/radios are EXACTLY how you left them.

Not worrying about if the last guy accidentally filled up too much fuel, or didn’t burn enough after topping the tanks, and your fourth passenger is out of luck bc of wb

[Bob - S50]

I have 3 partners. Has worked for me.

[MIm20c]

One consideration is going forward I think the insurance companies are going to crack down on partnerships larger than 3 and will start pricing them like clubs. Also right or wrong they might start increasing the rates dramatically if one or more of the members is getting up there in a age. This might not make a difference as the premium is split multiple ways but I’m limiting myself to co-ownership or a three person partnership. 
 

One negative right now is my plane feels like my safe haven. I never have to worry about other people being sick etc. I also really like the fact that the plane is exactly the way I left it being in a locked hangar. 

[WaynePierce]

Granted, most of you Mooney drivers are IR but I'm not. One thing I've found is I can buy the insurance and then have a partner as an additional pilot as long as they have their IR and some additional time in type, I think its 100 hours in type.