Interactions with ATC

[ilovecornfields]

I was just reading about some of the “bucket list” flights people are making and thought that maybe it’s finally time to shoot an approach into LAX, but then I read this thread on Reddit. Seems like a good reminder that the controllers are stressed out and struggling too and to remember to take it easy on them.

Personally, I’ve had noting but great interactions during my weekly social distancing flights but I can definitely see where they’re coming from.

P.S. - I apologize regarding some of the coarse language. It’s not mine but if you can get through it, I think I does present an interesting perspective that’s pertinent to our flying activities.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Humm,  I’m not sure what to think about this. 

There is no regulation that precludes someone from requesting a practice approach. If they are too busy, just deny the request.

If it is getting to be a problem, maybe they should put out a NOTAM. How are pilots supposed to know there is a problem?

[ilovecornfields]

My take on it is that while there is no regulation that prevents me from being rude or inconsiderate to the controllers, listening to their perspective makes me more mindful of my role in the “system” and how I can make it work better for both of us.

Theres no rule that says the controller has to offer me direct to my destination either but I certainly appreciate it when they do.

[MooneyMitch]

A few weeks ago, our SBP ATC was stating no touch and goes, no practice approaches, no pattern work.  Yesterday, I asked again and all were granted.  I believe it's up to the controller and his/her workload in any situation.....................Corona or not.  Respect is a two way street.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, ilovecornfields said:

My take on it is that while there is no regulation that prevents me from being rude or inconsiderate to the controllers, listening to their perspective makes me more mindful of my role in the “system” and how I can make it work better for both of us.

Theres no rule that says the controller has to offer me direct to my destination either but I certainly appreciate it when they do.

So, I didn’t see anything in the ATC guy’s post that said anybody was rude. 

I realize that he doesn’t deal with many GA practice approach requests on a normal day, but these aren’t normal days. He is probably irritated because normal airline traffic flows in a very predictable way, and now he has to deal with things that he doesn’t normally have to deal with.

Everybody wants to get back to normal.....I have vented a few times myself...

[carusoam]

Just another day around NYC...

Expect some people to be il-prepared, and ask for too much... Or request flying upstream salmon style as depicted in the OP...

Yes... a back course approach into an NYC airport while all the other kids are using the front course....   

Expect ATC to have some witty responses... then talk about you on line behind your back... Or in front of your back...like these guys did...

As for the salty discussion off line... no real value there... How real is it?  Sounds like an ordinary conversation between two guys in that area...

 

Be prepared... go ask for what is available... they haven’t forgotten the word unable yet....

It would be really uncool... to try to fit in using their form of the English language... without the right accent, you can’t fit in...

They aren’t using that language in a public environment... where tail numbers and conversations are fully recorded... and standard language is the only thing that is appreciated...

As far as illegal things to broadcast on air... the FCC was the last to control proper language...  I think they gave up shortly after George Carlin famously covered the seven words....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words

 

Go fly!  Prepare well... make it happen...

Want to hear a Philly guy get upset and unload on ATC because they shut down the approach a few minutes early... it’s around here somewhere...

Best regards,

-a-

[47U]

I observed, weekend before last, that NORCAL (Sacramento TRACON) had combined sectors to the extent that upon your initial call, you’ll walk on X number of other pilots talking to the same controller who’s trying to work those other sector frequencies.  Following one radio call I heard (paraphrased reply from the controller), “You just walked on seven other guys.”  WTH?  Where are the all the controllers?  I hope they’re not out sick, or furloughed because the airline traffic is almost non-existent.  But, frustration was rampant all around... not a ideal situation from a safety standpoint.

tom       

[carusoam]

@irishpilot...   something came up about aviation safety topics and Covid19....   

Thought you may have some ideas or input...

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, 47U said:

I observed, weekend before last, that NORCAL (Sacramento TRACON) had combined sectors to the extent that upon your initial call, you’ll walk on X number of other pilots talking to the same controller who’s trying to work those other sector frequencies.  Following one radio call I heard (paraphrased reply from the controller), “You just walked on seven other guys.”  WTH?  Where are the all the controllers?  I hope they’re not out sick, or furloughed because the airline traffic is almost non-existent.  But, frustration was rampant all around... not a ideal situation from a safety standpoint.

tom       

They talked about it in the Reddit thread I posted. They’re combining sectors and frequencies due to a combination of lower traffic and attempting to distance controllers in a facility (as well as changing their schedules). It sounds like the workflow is increased and different than what they’re used to, so I’m sure they are feeling stressed and frustrated.

I agree, it’s less than ideal from a safety perspective. Non current pilots with overwhelmed controllers isn’t the best combination.

[BaldEagle]

I’ve flown a Mooney into into LAX probably a dozen times or more, but this back in the early 2000’s as a freshly minted CFI.  One week, on the third trip up there in 3 consecutive days, the [irritated] controller working that sector asked me if I was starting up a 121 operation or something (“no sir, just picking up a customer connecting from London”).  Legitimate reason for making those flights, but I took the hint.  I suspect some TRACON controllers are irritated by certain YouTube videos making unusual requests, which are gaining traction in the GA community, while they are sitting in a TRACON facility that is staffed at 50%.

Anecdotally, SOCAL accommodated me yesterday with 3 practice approaches, but one frequency was extremely busy.

[irishpilot]

[mention=14366]irishpilot[/mention]...   something came up about aviation safety topics and Covid19....   
Thought you may have some ideas or input...
Best regards,
-a-

Thanks@carusoam. What we are witnessing for both military and civilian ATC is reduced hours, skeleton shifts, and increased controller workload. Because of enclosed work conditions controlling agencies have gone to hard scheduled shifts which takes scheduling flexibility away. However, if someone pops positive for CV19, ATC can stay open or reduce the down time due to the hard scheduled shifts.

When talking to Centers or busy App areas (LAX, SFO, DEN, etc), a technique is to check in, "tail #, alt, request." That seems to help when ATC is simulcasting on multiple freqs. Also, if they hook you up, a "thanks" goes a long ways.

Fly safe,
Your Friendly Safety Mod

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

While ATC is staffed at 50% maybe less, we also have workload down 50% maybe less. I live right on the Gulf and under an arrival gate for Tampa, and where us bug smashers fly north to south under the class B veil. Traffic, both commercial and GA is down way way more than 50% and our state is "opened' up compared to others. ATC per my handheld is way way down, controllers are friendly as is the GA and commercial banter there is going on. It could be a regional thing where the more "controlled" states and areas are raising the irritation levels.

[ilovecornfields]

I’m not a controller, but I do work somewhere where staffing gets adjusted due to volume and looking at % staffing vs. % volume totally misses the point.

It’s not like a bucket with a spigot where you have a certain amount going in and a certain amount going out and you just have to adjust the spigot to keep up. Original staffing levels were designed to accommodate the steady state and the “surge.” When you reduce staffing by 50% you reduce your “surge” capacity to a much greater extent because you don’t have a lot of extra people there to help distribute the sudden increase in workload. 

Yes, frequencies are much quieter these days and for the most part controllers seem relaxed and friendly but when they get a surge (or a high workload due to aircraft needing a lot of their attention) they will become overwhelmed much more quickly than they would have with full staffing. They are also working different roles than they are used to, having their schedule dramatically changed and worrying about their health and financial future like the rest of us.

With all due respect to @mike_elliott, I think it has absolutely nothing to do with how “controlled” or uncontrolled the states are and fell that adds nothing to this otherwise helpful discussion.

[mike_elliott]

Perhaps your right, it  seemed like the reddit post was somewhat "angry" in nature and a lot of times, this frustration is caused by external factors. My point wasnt to politicize it but to point out the frustration levels brewing that can contribute to the tone of the reddit post as a possibility.

[ilovecornfields]

No worries. I think it’s safe to say we’re all pretty stressed out right now.

[Skates97]

I know that on a typical evening I can see the incoming flights to LAX lined up off into the horizon. In the afternoons right now it is even less. My experience with the controllers here in SoCal has always been terrific, I think they are some of the best in the business. I agree on not asking for stupid stuff, but then again I have found controllers to entertain some things I would not have guessed. Four years ago doing my PPL training we flew into Ontairo KONT as it is right next to Chino. CFI first asked for a touch-n-go which they gave us on 26R followed by right closed traffic. Then he asked them if we could do a simulated engine out and turn back so they gave us 26R and cleared us for a left turn and land against traffic on 8R. After that touch-n-go we were cleared to make a right turn on departure and come back and do a fourth touch-n-go on 26L before departing back to Chino. They weren't very busy but did have some UPS Heavies arrive and depart 26L while we were on 26R and a couple other planes on 26R while we were playing around on 26L/8R. Be polite, be professional, be clear and concise on the radios, and ATC has always been helpful to me. 

 8:07am today.

Even zooming out I think I am counting 24 inbound as of 8:20am.

[skydvrboy]

On my last flight, I only talked to tower, so he wasn't working multiple sectors or anything like that.  However, returning an hour and a half later, he welcomed me back saying it was nice to finally have someone to talk to again.  I tinkered around the hangar for another hour and no one else came or left the airport while I was there.  I'm sure some are overworked, but some are just plain bored right now.

[Nick Pilotte]

Same here. My last flight, it was on the ATIS that  frequencies were combined.  I fly out of a very busy GA airport and they have been combined for the last weekends. I have seen some locals doing T&Gs and full stops at ORD too, granted, late at night, don’t know if that has been cut down or increased with all this.  The only time I’ve heard of irritation locally was when MDW went non-towered for a little while. 

[ragedracer1977]

2 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

On my last flight, I only talked to tower, so he wasn't working multiple sectors or anything like that.  However, returning an hour and a half later, he welcomed me back saying it was nice to finally have someone to talk to again.  I tinkered around the hangar for another hour and no one else came or left the airport while I was there.  I'm sure some are overworked, but some are just plain bored right now.

I did my 6 approaches last night for currency.  Spoke to Phoenix approach for approaches into Cottonwood, Sedona, Prescott, and Deer Valley.  I was on with her for about 2 hours, except for the approach into Prescott when I went over to tower.  On her frequency, in the entire time, I heard one other airplane, a Delta flight.  

[GeeBee]

I'm going to consider the source,  NY approach. I find the "institutional attitude" of facilities never seems to change. Rather it gets passed down from Journeyman to trainee and it seems to be a difficult to break. We often laughed when at JFK and comment that ATL would have recovered and launched three to JFK's one. For whatever reason, NY Tracon seems to believe it only needs to serve NY Tracon. They don't want to even begin to understand a pilot's operational problem. A good facility has a rapport with its users and if so, the users will support them. The best at this is ATL, the. worst is NY. It is often interesting to see this attitude at work when the airlines meet with ATC to go over FOQA data and trends they see, like slam-dunks and flap overspends. ATL always has the "how can we help" where as NY always was, "Well that's the way we always have and WILL do it." Not "how can we work this out?".

The OP's cite reminds me of flight attendants who would complain about full airplanes. As I used to tell them, full airplanes mean job security. It means we are meeting the needs of our customers. The controller in the OP does not see the users as customers, but rather interruptions. As one famous airline CEO once said, "Our customers is the reason for our work, not an interruption of it".

 

 

[Davidv]

I may have mentioned it here, but the first time that I requested a low pass over KMIA approach threatened to charge me a landing fee (I had been on an IFR flight plan as well).  There were 7 arrivals that hour.  I definitely see the controllers perspective above when it comes to the more "exotic" requests while they attempt to work multiple sectors, but this experience left a bad taste in my mouth.  I don't know about others, but I try to go out of my way to make their life easier during normal times by talking to them whenever possible and not flying into areas that are perfectly legal but would cause major issues for them.  For instance, the B and C airspace doesn't nearly cover all of the way points on SIDS and STARS.  Being based in a very busy airspace, I try to stay clear of these areas at all times.

Fortunately, I was able to finally get my low pass on a Sunday morning when they were even less busy...

[ohdub]

Controllers are individuals just like everyone else. Some enjoy the job more than others. Some units have seen their traffic dwindle more than others. Some units may be in a worse staffing situation than others.

I can't speak for others, but I know that I've been very bored at work lately, our traffic is down about 90% from the same time last year. I, as well as many of my colleagues have enjoyed accommodating pilot requests, letting pilots do things that wouldn't normally be possible. I can't wait for things to get back to normal so that I can work busy traffic again because that's what I enjoy doing. For now, every bit of traffic I can get helps pass the time and pilot requests for unusual things just gives me something else to do. If you fly through my airspace, request away!

[bradp]

@ohdub where’s your airspace?

[ohdub]

9 minutes ago, bradp said:

@ohdub where’s your airspace?

CYYZ (Toronto)

[bradp]

@ohdub oh cool.  Neat airspace.  Are you the famous YouTube CYYZ mooney flying controller featured with Steve flight chops ?