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Landed SFO Today


Mooney217RN

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6 hours ago, Mooney217RN said:

I called SFO ops.  The only way you pay the fee is if you stop in at the FBO.  The fee is $286.  If I get a bill, well.it was worth it.

That’s ridiculous, at Miami it’s $24.  On a side note if they ever told me I couldn’t land somewhere (especially on an IFR flight plan), I would ask them if it was still a public use airport and if my taxes were still funding ATC.  I don’t believe any public airport has the right to deny you landing based on your size.
 

Now, whether you should do it and interrupt their busy operation in non-covid times rather than landing at a smaller field is a different story...

Edited by Davidv
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23 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have been it and out of JFK twice this year.  No problems: Approach slides you into the stream, Ground progressively taxis you half way to Albany, the FBO fees are high.  

Have they improved the terminal for GA?  I occasionally went in there in a Hawker....1 hour flight from TEB to JFK.....I was just the bus driver and did what I was told.

back to the terminal, it was just a dingy old set of airport chairs 10 years ago.  They clearly didn't want non airline traffic there.

 

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I watched a YouTube video over the weekend where an RV8 driver did the trifecta of NYC with a low pass ate each. Then last night watched Christopher do the 3 ship Mooney low approach. Lot's of low passes and t-n-g's at the big places right now. The only thing I've seen similar in the recent past was after the 911 shutdowns, where places like KMEM were asking schools for help in landing so they could improve their traffic counts.

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1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Oh come on guys. I have landed at SFO, ATL, LAX, MCO,  etc dozens of. times in single engine airplanes. Heck, I took my PA-18 SuperCub into ATL. just two years ago. This is nonsense you can't land at a big airport in a single engine airplane. Are there challenges? Sure! Handle them. There are no "landing fees" because you are Part 91. Now are there FBO fees? Not until Signature took over the world. That is why I joined AOPA. They have. put the hurt on Signature's outrageous fees.

 

I still pay the fbo  $120 for the day at SJC 

-Robert

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Somebody should make a Mooney Trifecta  trophy for landing your Mooney at any three of of SFO, LAX, DFW, ORD, JFK ATL during the 2020 Covid air traffic doldrums. Must, at least briefly,  touch the runway, which may technically constitute a touch-and-go. :o

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2 hours ago, Davidv said:

That’s ridiculous, at Miami it’s $24.  On a side note if they ever told me I couldn’t land somewhere (especially on an IFR flight plan), I would ask them if it was still a public use airport and if my taxes were still funding ATC.  I don’t believe any public airport has the right to deny you landing based on your size.
 

I’ve never heard of any public airport saying you can’t land. May have flow control in affect though so you may need to reserve a slot. 
 

-Robert 

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2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I’ve never heard of any public airport saying you can’t land. May have flow control in affect though so you may need to reserve a slot. 
 

-Robert 

You've never been in to SFO during normal times.  SFO has very limited runway capacity compared to all other major airports.  They won't grant you clearance into the Bravo airspace; that's their way of telling you to go away.

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Just now, Mooney217RN said:

You've never been in to SFO during normal times.  SFO has very limited runway capacity compared to all other major airports.  They won't grant you clearance into the Bravo airspace; that's their way of telling you to go away.

Wow, so even if they grant me a clearance to SFO on the ground ("you are cleared to the San Francisco international airport via....) from my airport they will reject me once I arrive?  Or they won't grant my clearance?

What you're saying sounds like a VFR request scenario but I could be wrong...

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3 minutes ago, Mooney217RN said:

They won't grant you clearance into the Bravo airspace; that's their way of telling you to go away.

That's SOP for ATL, whether I'm flying IFR or VFR. But my destination has never been inside the Bravo, either, and only rarely underlying it.

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4 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Oh come on guys. I have landed at SFO, ATL, LAX, MCO,  etc dozens of. times in single engine airplanes. Heck, I took my PA-18 SuperCub into ATL. just two years ago. This is nonsense you can't land at a big airport in a single engine airplane. Are there challenges? Sure! Handle them. There are no "landing fees" because you are Part 91. Now are there FBO fees? Not until Signature took over the world. That is why I joined AOPA. They have. put the hurt on Signature's outrageous fees.

 

GeeBee, with all due respect, SFO has a landing fee of $286 for piston singles.  The only way it is collected is if you leave the runway environment and taxi to the FBO.  I have landed at a few Part 139 airfields, including LAX, ORD, LAS, BUR.  SFO has extremely limited runway capacity.  It is basically off limits to piston singles in normal times.  The way they do it is to deny you clearance into the Bravo airspace.  You can file IFR and maybe get sequenced in, maybe.  There is a GA airport 8 SE of SFO, San Carlos.  They want you landing there.

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18 minutes ago, Mooney217RN said:

You've never been in to SFO during normal times.  SFO has very limited runway capacity compared to all other major airports.  They won't grant you clearance into the Bravo airspace; that's their way of telling you to go away.

Even at GA Class-D Deer Valley (DVT), when it gets busy they just tell you "unable" or something similar and tell you to come back in ten minutes or so.

Scottsdale tower is always on the scanner in my office.   A week or so ago somebody was asking whether the tower thought they could go to Sky Harbor (Phoenix International, PHX) and do touch-and-goes.   There was a pregnant pause and then, "probably not".  ;) 

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30 minutes ago, Davidv said:

Wow, so even if they grant me a clearance to SFO on the ground ("you are cleared to the San Francisco international airport via....) from my airport they will reject me once I arrive?  Or they won't grant my clearance?

What you're saying sounds like a VFR request scenario but I could be wrong...

Correct, a VFR tower enroute clearance.

However, you'll be discouraged from filing into SFO from your home airport under normal circumstances.  Likely you won't get a clearance.  That's for a piston single.  If you're a G-V, well, you'll get your clearance.

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I think we are mixing up two different discussions. 

The first is whether a bravo airport is going to let you come to do a low pass, touch and go, ect...  In non-COVID times, the answer is almost unequivocally no (and they usually won't even let you transition).  Given the lack of traffic, some airports are amenable to it at the moment and others are not. 

The other discussion is landing at one of these airports.  If you file a flight plan and are cleared to any airport whether it's JFK, SFO, MIA, is no reason for them not to let you land.  Sure, they are going to have to get more creative to get you in and you may have a delay but they won't prevent you from landing and paying the hefty fees to the FBO.  I'll stand corrected if someone here filed a flight plan, was cleared to the airport, and then told by approach when they are about to enter the Bravo that they can't land at that airport (aside from emergencies, weather ect... of course). 

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11 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Even at GA Class-D Deer Valley (DVT), when it gets busy they just tell you "unable" or something similar and tell you to come back in ten minutes or so.

Scottsdale tower is always on the scanner in my office.   A week or so ago somebody was asking whether the tower thought they could go to Sky Harbor (Phoenix International, PHX) and do touch-and-goes.   There was a pregnant pause and then, "probably not".  ;) 

Exactly.  SFO is the "Holy Grail" to us lowly single piston operators.  Even if you were to file IFR into SFO, you'll get discouraged and/or diverted.  With a $286 landing fee, no piston single pilot in their right mind would land there unless they had to.

 

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2 hours ago, Mooney217RN said:

GeeBee, with all due respect, SFO has a landing fee of $286 for piston singles.  The only way it is collected is if you leave the runway environment and taxi to the FBO.  I have landed at a few Part 139 airfields, including LAX, ORD, LAS, BUR.  SFO has extremely limited runway capacity.  It is basically off limits to piston singles in normal times.  The way they do it is to deny you clearance into the Bravo airspace.  You can file IFR and maybe get sequenced in, maybe.  There is a GA airport 8 SE of SFO, San Carlos.  They want you landing there.

Thank you for the respect. Now let me explain. First of all the SFO area. I know it well.  I grew up there. I lived the first 45 years of my life there. I learned to fly at KRHV, I was the Chief Instructor at San Jose Flight School. for a while, flew for numerous corporate entities all of which your would recognize. Have landed everything from a C-150 to an A330 at KSFO.

Second, I understand the fee structures for airports as I used to be on an airport board. You pay 19.4 cents per gallon FET on each gallon of avgas. If you are a Part 135 or 121 operator your fuel is FET exempt BUT you charge 7.25% on your fare (aka tariff) which your remit quarterly. These taxes are what guarantee you access to all airports that receive Federal services and Federal funds which is basically all public airports in including KSFO and even capacity controlled airports. SFO is not a capacity controlled airport and never has been a capacity controlled airport. The only capacity controlled (aka slot required) airports are KJFK, KDCA and KLGA. Airports can charge over and above the FET amount as a fee known as PFC (Passenger Facility Fee). However that fee has to be for a defined purpose (such as a bond obligation) and can only be in place as long as that purpose exists. Its amount is limited by Federal law and while the calculation is complicated, the limit is not. $18 for an airline ticket. Because the PFC is a limited purpose tax, it can only be collected in limited circumstances. Basically you must be using the terminal or building facilities owned and or leased out by the airport.

Airports can charge a Part 91 operator an "equivalent PFC" but to do it you must be on their lease hold which is why as you said, if you taxi to the FBO, they got you because you are on their lease hold. It is not because the FBO has the opportunity to collect.  http://media.flysfo.com.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/investor/SFO_Summary_of_Charges_FY19-20.pdf

Stay. off the lease holds and nobody can not charge you a thing.

For those of you paying $120/day at KSJC, that is because the owners of SJJC spread their you know whats  to win the RFP and all the city saw was dollars. If my group had won that RFP you would be paying a. lot less. Thank Raul Regalado and Mayor McEnnry. There was more than enough money there without gigging single engine operators.

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I’m not sure what the big deal is - SFO JFK BOS ORD are all just airports.  Bigger and more complex yes.  Memorable, perhaps.  Expensive, sometimes. I don’t want to take away form anyone’s enjoyment but an airport is an airport is an airport.  If you are IFR or even VFR and want to go there nobody will discourage an arrival.   
 

 

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I used to have to meet customers here and there.  Sometimes they would pick the big, busy airports.  Atlanta, Tampa, Phily, Pittsburgh, Teterboro, Detroit, Cleveland, Midway, Milwaukee, Memphis, St. Louis, Houston, etc..  Never on a whim, I always was on an IFR flight plan and never, ever had any problem.  Aside from Detroit asking me to maintain 170 indicated in my Bonanza, I could only give 'em 160.  One morning going into Atlanta they asked for best forward speed, I said that would be 160 to a two mile final in a 300' ceiling and 1 mile viz.  Best be prepared to do what they need.  Always found ATC very easy to work with when you can give what they want.  Going in a big airport was never the problem.  Leaving Atlanta a 5 in the afternoon is a 2 mile conga line taxiing and hoping the Boeing driver behind doesn't forget I'm way down here just in front of his nosewheel.  That and a 25 or so mile vector out of your way.  Nowadays, instead of paying a landing fee, I will go out of my way not to go in those places.

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Just now, David Lloyd said:

I used to have to meet customers here and there.  Sometimes they would pick the big, busy airports.  Atlanta, Tampa, Phily, Pittsburgh, Teterboro, Detroit, Cleveland, Midway, Milwaukee, Memphis, St. Louis, Houston, etc..  Never on a whim, I always was on an IFR flight plan and never, ever had any problem.  Aside from Detroit asking me to maintain 170 indicated in my Bonanza, I could only give 'em 160.  One morning going into Atlanta they asked for best forward speed, I said that would be 160 to a two mile final in a 300' ceiling and 1 mile viz.  Best be prepared to do what they need.  Always found ATC very easy to work with when you can give what they want.  Going in a big airport was never the problem.  Leaving Atlanta a 5 in the afternoon is a 2 mile conga line taxiing and hoping the Boeing driver behind doesn't forget I'm way down here just in front of his nosewheel.  That and a 25 or so mile vector out of your way.  Nowadays, instead of paying a landing fee, I will go out of my way not to go in those places.

I was landing at Tampa last year and they told me to slow to final approach speed 3 miles out because I was going too fast!  Immediately before that the previous controller asked if I was an MU-2 (my Mooney pride moment of the day).  It all depends on what they have going on at the time.

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My "home" (work) field!

My last landing there... last day I flew the line (for now) March 4th.

I've been thinking perhaps take the Mooney up for a bay tour and ask for a low approach down the 28s, but I suspect the view off to the left of RJs parked where I used to work would be too depressing.

Looks like the summer off... an unplanned sabbatical. After that, who knows....

Edited by Immelman
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7 hours ago, Immelman said:

My "home" (work) field!

My last landing there... last day I flew the line (for now) March 4th.

I've been thinking perhaps take the Mooney up for a bay tour and ask for a low approach down the 28s, but I suspect the view off to the left of RJs parked where I used to work would be too depressing.

Looks like the summer off... an unplanned sabbatical. After that, who knows....

I sincerely hope things turn around for you and. you get recalled. Been there, it's tough.

 

 

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On 4/29/2020 at 12:05 AM, carusoam said:

It’s really interesting...

ATC wants the business

They are probably counting the operations... (?)

 

Anthony, it certainly seems so.

A weekend after WA governor introduced shelter in place, I flew a number of instrument approaches around SEA. It was very quiet. Upon landing at home filed controller (who was working all frequencies) thanked me for flying today.

Couple of friends flew to SEA last weekend. Now I am looking at landing there and get a stamp in my WA fly Passport as Seatac is participating airport.

https://www.flywashington.org/

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On 4/29/2020 at 9:52 AM, Mooney217RN said:

You've never been in to SFO during normal times.  SFO has very limited runway capacity compared to all other major airports.  They won't grant you clearance into the Bravo airspace; that's their way of telling you to go away.

217RN.... I respectfully disagree. Granted I don't go up often but have flown 'the bay tour' and transited SFO class B numerous times in my GA flying for nearly 20 years. Never denied entry to Bravo from Norcal, never. SFO tower has, especially after an incident involving a GA aircraft, occasionally denied low-level transitions when they are busy but that is rare. If that is the case you cross at a higher altitude talking with norcal tracon.

Note, I am responding to your verbatim claim about "clearance into the Bravo". I am not talking landing SFO. When it comes to landing at SFO, there is an FBO (Signature), it costs an arm and a leg, but its a public airport open to anyone. Pre-covid though, you're right, its used to the limits of its facilities. Anyone CAN land at SFO, but you may not land exactly when you WANT to. In years of flying regional aircraft we would often get multi-hour ground delays at the departure airport, mostly because we'd get the short end of the stick from the mainline managing the landing 'slots'. In the current job flying a bigger airplane those delays were minimal or rare. The best were the trips down to Mexico, or Hawaii.... no ATC delays departing from those stations.

Now back to COVID and GA into the big airports:

Its a neat novelty, sure. Perhaps a good place to practice an ILS if they're not busy (After all, you have complete traffic separation in the primary class B airport).

But landing at a big field, let me tell you, the novelty wears off quickly once you have to taxi around. Its easy to make a mistake, easy to do something that bites you in the ass. Several fields (SFO included) have poorly marked and/or confusing intersections. The reason taxiway J is closed is because a 121 pilot mistakenly turned onto it during taxi, and nearly onto 28L into landing traffic.

LAX has that awful roadway between inner and outer taxiways and I have been cut off by ground vehicles many times. Our Mooneys thankfully stop more quickly than an airliner. Momentum...

Each big field has its issues, and the ground ops are the most stressful part. Again, pre-covid, when things were busy...

Given the choice between flying into any big field in my Mooney and a sleepy non-towered airport, I'll take the non-towered one every time. Once you do this for a living and the novelty wears off, the 'cool' factor is replaced with the fact that the big fields can be a big headache.

 

 

Edited by Immelman
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