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Did my first no flap landing


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1 minute ago, ShuRugal said:

Have taken off with full flaps and landing trim a couple times. Doesn't require any special effort, is anything it is even smoother than half flaps. Doesn't rotate at all, just kind of floats up off the runway at 60 MIAS and settles into a climb about halfway between Vx and Vy.
 

In an F with full nose up trim and full power application,   there is quite an effort to push down on the yoke.   That's why I tell everyone new to a Mooney.  You will only forget to check the trim twice.

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In an F with full nose up trim and full power application,   there is quite an effort to push down on the yoke.   That's why I tell everyone new to a Mooney.  You will only forget to check the trim twice.
That's a fair point, I forgot to caveat that the behavior of my short body may not be indicative of the way a 'stretched' Mooney will behave.
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22 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:
24 minutes ago, Yetti said:
In an F with full nose up trim and full power application,   there is quite an effort to push down on the yoke.   That's why I tell everyone new to a Mooney.  You will only forget to check the trim twice.

That's a fair point, I forgot to caveat that the behavior of my short body may not be indicative of the way a 'stretched' Mooney will behave.

Also 180hp.  the F is 200HP    I would think with 300HP in the long bodies it would be quite a ride.

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52 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

Have taken off with full flaps and landing trim a couple times. Doesn't require any special effort, is anything it is even smoother than half flaps. Doesn't rotate at all, just kind of floats up off the runway at 60 MIAS and settles into a climb about halfway between Vx and Vy.

Not in my K it doesn't.  With full flaps and power it needs a lot of forward push on the yoke to fly at what feels like a normal attitude.  The C/F can of course be more tame, or I might just suck as a pilot.

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1 hour ago, tmo said:

Not in my K it doesn't.  With full flaps and power it needs a lot of forward push on the yoke to fly at what feels like a normal attitude.  The C/F can of course be more tame, or I might just suck as a pilot.

Having owned both a short body, under powered C and now a 252 K, I can confirm this. The C was very docile taking off with full flaps and full nose up trim. The 252 is a whole different story. I've done it and it's doable, but I'm a big guy and had my left arm locked forward to hold the nose down while I pulled nose up trim out.

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On 4/27/2020 at 4:48 PM, steingar said:

First of all, my mechanic will repair this, not me.  It is illegal for me to do so.   Moreover, he is going to remove all the cowlings next week anyway, so he'll have a good view of it all and will repair it correctly, unlike me.

It's not illegal for you to repair the flaps.  It is illegal for you to inspect them and return them to service.  A few months ago I had the same problem, I thought perhaps the o-ring had blown, so I disassembled and replaced the orings in the pump, figured out how to build a pressure pot and reverse bleed the hydraulic fluid... and the flaps still didn't work.  Turns out that the flap actuator lever pulls a cable that is attached to the pump lever with a single screw and nut... and that pump lever has to be in the EXACT right spot for the pump valve to work.  I spent 2 days rebuilding the pump, when really all I probably needed to do was adjust the pump lever cable and tighten the nut, but in the end I got it all working and had my A&P inspect it and sign it off. 
 

If you can’t do it yourself this is where your mechanic should look first.

image.thumb.jpeg.c977950569c5cd187390982abf98e0c9.jpeg

Edited by SantosDumont
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7 hours ago, ShuRugal said:
8 hours ago, Yetti said:
In an F with full nose up trim and full power application,   there is quite an effort to push down on the yoke.   That's why I tell everyone new to a Mooney.  You will only forget to check the trim twice.

That's a fair point, I forgot to caveat that the behavior of my short body may not be indicative of the way a 'stretched' Mooney will behave.


Let’s be be fair to other readers...

  • Full power
  • Full flaps
  • Full up trim

As in what occurs in a go around... comes as a surprise to many first time Mooney flyers...

  • 180hp or 310hp...
  • Short or Long body...

Doesn’t make a difference... except for the speed of which the stall occurs, or the strength required to hold the nose down....


Not sure why anyone would set the trim for T/O and leave full flaps down other than being distracted.... during the config change process...

The extra drag is so high compared to the extra lift... it isn’t a very useable configuration for departure...


to be extra clear... it is where the trim often gets left, full up, that causes a miss match with full power...
 

Adding flaps actually, moves the CL further back, making the nose heavy...
 

I like making this point as clearly as I can... too many people have come to grief by getting it wrong.


PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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Guilty party.  Got distracted.  Full flaps and full nose up trim.  By the time I had the gear stowed I was 3mph away from a departure stall.  I must have gotten a bum airplane, I go around with everything in the landing configuration and I have to push pretty hard to keep it out of stall territory.  I bet more than one crash happened when someone took off with everything in landing configuration and stalled the airplane before they figured it out.

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Let’s be be fair to other readers...

  • Full power
  • Full flaps
  • Full up trim
As in what occurs in a go around...

 

to be extra clear... it is where the trim often gets left, full up, that causes a miss match with full power...

 

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I did specify in my post that this was with landing trim applied - which for me usually works out to be half way between takeoff trim and full up.

 

I've never landed with literal full up trim, there's way to much available. I've also never found go around practice to require any particularly memorable amount of push on the yoke to control attitude. I'll have to do some deliberate checking next time I'm up, but memory tells me that on a go around she wants to climb somewhere between Vx and Vy...

 

 

 

I like making this point as clearly as I can... too many people have come to grief by getting it wrong.

 

That's fair, but it is making me scratch my head and wonder what must be wrong with the way I do landings.

 

 

I have experienced what you are describing at *half* flaps and excessive nose up trim, when I was first leaning how everything likes to be set on mine. I've also experienced it by sucking the flaps in all the way instead of in stages on a go around (thought the yoke on that one was gonna shove me into the beck seat).

 

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13 hours ago, Yetti said:

The flaps on the Mooney are smaller than a C172.   Two things with full flap landing.  I think they push air down on the runway during landing.   They are only about 9 inches off the ground.   If you are full flaps and do a go around it is probably at full nose up trim.  add a bunch of power and there can be a departure stall.   If you are half flaps on landing trim is right about at take off settings.   I think this is why the manual says "flaps as needed"  

Also the rule of no turn under 90 mph with no flaps in the pattern.

Yep, that's how I land my C.

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Now that we are talking about trim, my partner is the type that has a 11 page checklist and is super anal. He always flaps and trims for landing. Our Mooneys trim indicator was inop, so sometimes when I take off, its nose up and I had to push down. This became a habit. Then I was flying a Merlin, we were doing full stop landings and takeoffs. Upon one takeoff, she went nose up, I pushed the nose forward, but she kept fighting me. I was holding the yoke forward screaming at the owner something was wrong. It took him a minute to react, and he pushed some switch on the yoke (trim) and it went back to normal. The point is, everything in that plane happens so fast and if it wasn't for my partner trimming the Mooney for landing, I dont think I would have had the reflexes to push that yoke forward and we would have turned into a yard dart. That was my last flight in that Merlin. Now I fixed the trim indicator, it was white on white, now I colored it with a sharpee and I can see it. 

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Not mountain biking but friend of mine had nasty stall on a bike as we walked away from aircraft, here is him executing go-around with tail strike on a small folding bike: not paying attention to his speed & pitch, shame we could not ride bikes that day as he felt more comfortable in a taxi :D

20190921_150546.jpg

Edited by Ibra
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10 hours ago, mike20papa said:

.. that should cure him.

Also helps on 1st job interviews to claim you have already some Boeing stick time....

Edited by Ibra
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On 5/11/2020 at 6:04 PM, mike20papa said:

To the poor fellow with the 11 page check list .. tell him to go get some Stearman time - look for an old guy/instructor with 1000+ hours dusting .. that should cure him.

Ha, now that we did a panel upgrade, I am sure he is going to have a 50 page checklist! I wish I was that anal, but I am good with a flow checklist during every phase of flight. 

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the Stearman I fly is an early model Navy N2S - check lists just coming into use.  There is a place holder for one on the right side of the panel - 5 X 7 card.  There is an aluminum box that you can "reach" between your feet labeled "aircraft data" but most of them have been removed.   I keep FAA required paper work in it.  And the seats ... they adjust up & down - not forward & back.  Until you get time in one - you can't appreciate why.     

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  • 2 weeks later...

Went to visit the airplane over the weekend, good place to do a long motorcycle ride.  It is still where I left it. It clearly has been worked on.  I was told Bobby was having the devil's own time with the flaps.  I think this annual will clean me out pretty good.

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So talked to Bobby, my mechanic.  Apparently one of the rubber gaskets in the pump went kablooey, and he's trying to repair.  And I get to spend a full AMU on a strobe power supply.  Lucky me.  Isn't aviation grand?

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19 minutes ago, steingar said:

So talked to Bobby, my mechanic.  Apparently one of the rubber gaskets in the pump went kablooey, and he's trying to repair.  And I get to spend a full AMU on a strobe power supply.  Lucky me.  Isn't aviation grand?

You can probably go LED for less than that and remove the power supply along with it's weight.

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On 5/28/2020 at 10:29 AM, gsxrpilot said:

You can probably go LED for less than that and remove the power supply along with it's weight.

Paul, I owe you a beer or something stronger.  Advice taken.  I'll have to spend a little money for my mechanic to get the power supply out of the other wing.  

Bob said he spent 3 days fixing the flap pump.  50 year old parts with no replacements anywhere.  I hope I have enough money left after this annual to fly the airplane.

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So I brought back my Mooney today. Had to power down to keep it out of the yellow in turbulence. I love my Mooney. Flaps are fixed, though it takes a couple more pumps to get them going. Step is fixed, though I doubt I’ll ever use it again. The Lucky Strike now sports a new glare shield too, one without a giant crack in it. And boy are those new strobes bright!

315504873_CDSV6838(1).thumb.jpg.e2729f5613f3ddc5ec2389c7569eddef.jpg17F8FA7C-0D4E-4F46-AA99-A5DA919A6343.thumb.jpeg.bf4ce2c33e96d006659752bb26d33f74.jpeg2A420428-D0E7-4196-AD00-C6532E53DE64.thumb.jpeg.f17779489067ebd1ebd208995fbd91ef.jpeg

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