Pilot boy Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 Hello everyone, I am looking for a good xcountry time builder for myself (going for the regionals). My current work also has me traveling from Nebraska to NY state regularly and it'd be nice to take my own plane instead of the airliners as I'm trying to build time anyway. I'd like insight into the cheapest Mooney for ongoing maintenance costs (if there's a difference there). I am thinking manual gear for example might be cheaper to maintain and more reliable than the electric gear. My wife and I have one child and plan to have a 2nd child in the next couple years. I think the 700 to 750 lbs with full fuel payload of most of the Mooneys will suffice as we are not super heavy. I'd like to be able to take the family until they get to teenage years at least. For me building time I'd like around a 10 GPH and the most speed I can get for the long trips to NY. I am open to any model to best fit the mission. C models seem a bit easier to find and for lower up front costs you get more features in the panel etc than an F or G model. and I'm not sure we really need the extra cabin space too much though I'd probably prefer and F or G if I can find a good one...or even an E/201. My budget all in is around $60k for the plane. I'd like it to have a WAAS GPS or else I will be installing the at if I find a cheaper plane without an updated panel. My big thing is I don't mind spending more up front if it's worth it to get a better airframe and engine, but it has to be worth it. I don't mind a little bit of fixing up if it saves me $20 or $30k up front and the repair bills dont make it a wash. So a good time builder that can become also a small family plane that's relatively cheap for ongoing maintenance (I'm budgeting about $12k per year on a regular basis, some years will be more, some less hopefully) with an engine fund of $30k for engine and prop down the road. If that's not enough criteria, I can come up with more. I'm in Omaha, NE so I know Wilmar is fairly close. I'll also need a knowledgeable pre buy mechanic but that may depend on where I find a plane worth looking at. Thanks everyone. If anyone knows a vintage Mooney model around Omaha, NE I'd really like to sit in one as I haven't been able to find a local owner yet. Which is surprising as I've found 2 Grumman Travelers owners here. I'm also looking at the Grumman Tiger but the payload is worse (600 to 650 lbs after fuel) and tops out around 130 knots it seems and I want every ounce of speed I can get. Any prior Grumman Tiger owners I would appreciate insights on costs to maintain also though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 If you have the ability to travel... go see AAA in TX... sit in many Mooneys... If you like the technology of flying... an M20K is a technically sound machine... we were calculating mpg for one of its flights around here... yesterday. Most simple speed and efficiency is found in an M20J... An M20C is where many get their feet wet in GA and Mooney... There are no bad Mooneys, you will want to do your homework to determine what is best for you... My avatar pic shows two kids that grew up in the back of an M20C, on the evening the M20R arrived... 10 years ago. you have about a decade to decide what your forever plane will be... or if something with more leg room will be required... in between. After that... M20Es make popular retirement planes... Planning your life stage, around a Mooney.... or two... or three... Go Mooney! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 Full fuel payload of 700 lb will be difficult. My C has 970 useful, and I carry 312 in fuel, leaving 670 lb (me and my favorite 470 lb) ready to go. That will take me 5 hours with IFR reserves, but that's too much sitting. I've done 4:45 twice, landing with 11-12 gal or 1:15 - 1:20 remaining; my plane trues at 147 KTAS. F and J can have useful loads of 1000-1100, but they carry 64 gal (390 lb) of fuel, leaving 610-710 of load. Flown LOP, they can stay aloft for 6-7 hours at about my speed, or go 10-15 knots faster for about the same time. Es are in between, most have 52 gal (I think), but the same IO-360 as the F & J. But you still will be very unlikely to have full fuel plus 750 lb payload. If you think this is bad, check sime of the newer Acclaims, they atw full full (100 - 130 gal) plus pilot and sometimes a small bag . . . . But you don't want to pay the upkeep on one of these anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 Building time...? 1) Light weight... 2) aft balance... 3) Low Mp... 4) LOP... 5) Karson’s speed... 6) minimized drag... 7) maximized hours aloft, and going somewhere... 8) An M20E is a great machine for consideration... 9) Read up on Johnathan Paul flying his Mooney across the US, non-stop... 10) bonus for a highly efficient prop... like an MT or TopProp... A great way to achieve your goals... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) It is good to dream. I write to convey my experience as a first plane owner. We have a '67C with manual gear. We bought it in late 2017 with about 1350 on the engine. The pre-buy turned up very little. All AD's had been complied with and we were eager to own. Being noobs, we didn't really realize all the deferred maintenance that going to come due in the first few years of ownership. After about 1 year of ownership the left tank started leaking badly, so we had both tanks re-sealed. The prop. governor went next and was too old for repair so we replaced it. Prop balancing was next and that revealed really worn engine mounts that needed replaced. We discovered some minor corrosion on the steel tubular frame in the cockpit and decided to get that examined and epoxy painted by a Mooney Service Center (MSC) to make sure there were no corrosion show-stoppers that were missed in the pre-buy. Got lucky there. This last (3rd) annual we decided to replace the 16 y.o. shock disks to protect our investment in the tank reseal. We did some optional stuff to like re-do the panel for a six-pack layout with a GNS430W and ADS-B out. Now the prop need's IRAN'd because Hartzell is nervous about how long it has been since it was opened up. Luckily my kids are grown and we could afford do all this. Add all that up and it is about $45k. Buying a plane that has been impeccably maintained and is in the shape you want, with recently resealed tanks and replaced shock disks (like mine) would definitely be the way to go. For calibration, my "accountant certified" spreadsheet which includes $3000 est. for annuals, $250/mo hangar rent, $1200/y insurance and the total cost of overhaul at TBO says that with $4.50/fuel she costs us about $175/h to fly if we fly 130h/y, which is what we've been averaging. When I was young with a new family there is no way I could have afforded that. Perhaps your financial situation is able to sustain that level of cost per hour. If you buy the right plane that doesn't have the deficit in deferred maintenance that ours did, your costs per hour might be a bit less. Also, you might get reimbursed for your flight time which would be great. Good luck. PM me if you have any questions about any of this. Edited April 6, 2020 by 0TreeLemur detail. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 6, 2020 Report Share Posted April 6, 2020 4 hours ago, Pilot boy said: My budget all in is around $60k for the plane. That's a good number and I'd use it to get the best M20C you can find. 4 hours ago, Pilot boy said: I don't mind a little bit of fixing up if it saves me $20 or $30k up front and the repair bills dont make it a wash. The problem is that "little bit of fixing up" will cost 2X to 4X what you save off the purchase price. As an example, the difference between a $35K M20C and a $60K M20C will not be $25K but probably closer to $50K or $60K. I don't know anything about this one other than what's in the ad. But it looks good on paper and priced right. And if you check FlightAware, it's flying regularly. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2380002&s-type=aircraft 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 On 4/5/2020 at 5:19 PM, Hank said: On 4/5/2020 at 9:38 PM, gsxrpilot said: That's a good number and I'd use it to get the best M20C you can find. The problem is that "little bit of fixing up" will cost 2X to 4X what you save off the purchase price. As an example, the difference between a $35K M20C and a $60K M20C will not be $25K but probably closer to $50K or $60K. I don't know anything about this one other than what's in the ad. But it looks good on paper and priced right. And if you check FlightAware, it's flying regularly. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2380002&s-type=aircraft I have read some of your posts on here. What is your average for annual maintenance on that last M20C you had? Is $12k per year around right for keeping it flying? Hangar and insurance separate. I plan to pay for the plane in cash so no interest charges or payments. Sounds good on the don't buy the fixer upper. I will look for something better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 On 4/5/2020 at 5:19 PM, Hank said: Full fuel payload of 700 lb will be difficult. My C has 970 useful, and I carry 312 in fuel, leaving 670 lb (me and my favorite 470 lb) ready to go. That will take me 5 hours with IFR reserves, but that's too much sitting. I've done 4:45 twice, landing with 11-12 gal or 1:15 - 1:20 remaining; my plane trues at 147 KTAS. F and J can have useful loads of 1000-1100, but they carry 64 gal (390 lb) of fuel, leaving 610-710 of load. Flown LOP, they can stay aloft for 6-7 hours at about my speed, or go 10-15 knots faster for about the same time. Es are in between, most have 52 gal (I think), but the same IO-360 as the F & J. But you still will be very unlikely to have full fuel plus 750 lb payload. If you think this is bad, check sime of the newer Acclaims, they atw full full (100 - 130 gal) plus pilot and sometimes a small bag . . . . But you don't want to pay the upkeep on one of these anyway. I can make those useful loads work for a long time so that should be okay if it's 670 lbs or just carry a bit less fuel on the F and J models etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Pb Is in the house!!! Some homework you can do for yourself... Look up what it costs locally to put a roof over your bird... or store it outside... You can get a pretty good idea of what insurance costs... we have a helpful insurance guy around here... that first year will cost an extra 1amu while you get familiar with flying it... Annual costs get shared around here often... depending on how helpful you can be... or how many things you break while helping... 1-3AMU is probably a popular no issues annual... Many people target flying 100hrs each year... at 10gal/hr... what’s your fuel price like lately? Many Mooneys have a UL near 1kLBs... The smallest fuel tanks are just under 52 gallons... the 65C standardized on the 52... somewhere before that the fuel tank tops had different capping systems... leading to different volumes being available... Add in some Transition training, or some IFR training, or some form of training... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 On 4/5/2020 at 5:35 PM, 0TreeLemur said: It is good to dream. I write to convey my experience as a first plane owner. We have a '67C with manual gear. We bought it in late 2017 with about 1350 on the engine. The pre-buy turned up very little. All AD's had been complied with and we were eager to own. Being noobs, we didn't really realize all the deferred maintenance that going to come due in the first few years of ownership. After about 1 year of ownership the left tank started leaking badly, so we had both tanks re-sealed. The prop. governor went next and was too old for repair so we replaced it. Prop balancing was next and that revealed really worn engine mounts that needed replaced. We discovered some minor corrosion on the steel tubular frame in the cockpit and decided to get that examined and epoxy painted by a Mooney Service Center (MSC) to make sure there were no corrosion show-stoppers that were missed in the pre-buy. Got lucky there. This last (3rd) annual we decided to replace the 16 y.o. shock disks to protect our investment in the tank reseal. We did some optional stuff to like re-do the panel for a six-pack layout with a GNS430W and ADS-B out. Now the prop need's IRAN'd because Hartzell is nervous about how long it has been since it was opened up. Luckily my kids are grown and we could afford do all this. Add all that up and it is about $45k. Buying a plane that has been impeccably maintained and is in the shape you want, with recently resealed tanks and replaced shock disks (like mine) would definitely be the way to go. For calibration, my "accountant certified" spreadsheet which includes $3000 est. for annuals, $250/mo hangar rent, $1200/y insurance and the total cost of overhaul at TBO says that with $4.50/fuel she costs us about $175/h to fly if we fly 130h/y, which is what we've been averaging. When I was young with a new family there is no way I could have afforded that. Perhaps your financial situation is able to sustain that level of cost per hour. If you buy the right plane that doesn't have the deficit in deferred maintenance that ours did, your costs per hour might be a bit less. Also, you might get reimbursed for your flight time which would be great. Good luck. PM me if you have any questions about any of this. So I just want to clarify you were spending about $15k per year to maintain the Mooney M20C for the first three years? Good to know, but you misunderstand, I am in my 30s and my wife and I are well established in our business, which we own. We are just having children a bit later than most have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Compared to children... The most expensive Mooney yearly upkeep is just a drop in the bucket... -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, carusoam said: Pb Is in the house!!! Some homework you can do for yourself... Look up what it costs locally to put a roof over your bird... or store it outside... You can get a pretty good idea of what insurance costs... we have a helpful insurance guy around here... that first year will cost an extra 1amu while you get familiar with flying it... Annual costs get shared around here often... depending on how helpful you can be... or how many things you break while helping... 1-3AMU is probably a popular no issues annual... Many people target flying 100hrs each year... at 10gal/hr... what’s your fuel price like lately? Add in some Transition training, or some IFR training, or some form of training... Best regards, -a- $130 per month for hangar, $2200 per year for insurance thru Avemco for an M20C last I checked a few months ago. I have my IR. I will get some transition training. The biggest numbers I want is how much it averages per year for maintenance of these older birds. $15k per year for maintenance etc with the annual etc. I'm more focused on ongoing costs. I posted a thread awhile back but I will take any info I can get. Is it costing you $10k in maintenance per year, $15k, $20k I need to know how much I need to plan for. Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Oh fuel price around here is typically $4.50 to $4.75. I think some places are now in the lows 4s with the oil excess supply issues. Midwest - Omaha NE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJE22 Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, Pilot boy said: I believe your $12k/year “all-in” is pretty accurate but will vary depending the hours/year you fly. The C can do what you need; and the E gives you more realistic LOP options. Cannot go wrong with any of the Mooney options really (IMO). I had been doing the long search... had taken a few trips to look at airplanes and in the end made trips to or did deep research looks at: an E in Colorado E in Utah a C in Michigan C in upstate NY C near DC C in Kansas City. in the end, I got lucky with finding my C which was not even on the market when I connected with the owner. Of all the planes I researched (that were in my $ range) the one I bought was far and away the best for many reasons including the maintenance it had received and the hours it had flown in the prior 5-years ————— I have read some of your posts on here. What is your average for annual maintenance on that last M20C you had? Is $12k per year around right for keeping it flying? Hangar and insurance separate. I plan to pay for the plane in cash so no interest charges or payments. Sounds good on the don't buy the fixer upper. I will look for something better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Pilot boy said: $130 per month for hangar, $2200 per year for insurance thru Avemco for an M20C last I checked a few months ago. I have my IR. I will get some transition training. The biggest numbers I want is how much it averages per year for maintenance of these older birds. $15k per year for maintenance etc with the annual etc. I'm more focused on ongoing costs. I posted a thread awhile back but I will take any info I can get. Is it costing you $10k in maintenance per year, $15k, $20k I need to know how much I need to plan for. Thank you all! $360 per month for hangar in southern California I had IR and over 100 hours in a M20B before I bought my 'F'; I'm at $1200 per year $1MM/$100K (I passed on $3200/year for $1MM smooth!) I've owned for two and half years and am around 90 hours/year. All in I've averaged $16K per year. I was shooting for $12K/year...I'm doing a little better this year, so we shall see. Edited April 7, 2020 by MikeOH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilot boy Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Just now, MikeOH said: $360 per month for hangar in southern California I had IR and over 100 hours in a M20B before I bought my 'F'; I'm at $1200 per year $1MM/$100K (I passed on $3200/year for $1MM smooth!) I've owned for two and half years and am around 90 hours/year. All in I've averaged $16K per year. All in are you including the fuel for 90 hours in that $16k per year or all in everything but fuel basically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 See if this helps... 100hrs 10gal per hour 4$/gal... 4amu for fuel... A couple oil changes... a few hundred bucks if you leave it in an expensive place... check the price of oil and filter at aircraft spruce... Three to four days for a mechanic to do an annual? 8 hour days Add a day in case my memory isn’t any good... Does the house get $100 each hour a mechanic works on your bird where you are? 3.2amu according to my math... According to my math... my M20C would cost me about 8amu to enjoy for a year... Add the extra amu if I didn’t have M20C experience... Storing it in your hangar... 150 X 12 ... 1.8amu... Throw in a few sodas, a couple of beach passes, and a dinner for that person sitting next to you... Roughly 10AMU... Don’t break anything... PP showing how math can be done...we have a mathematician and some spreadsheets around here... -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Just now, Pilot boy said: All in are you including the fuel for 90 hours in that $16k per year or all in everything but fuel basically? TOTAL: fuel, charts, data base subscription, Savvy program, oil, EVERYTHING. My spreadsheet has spark plug gaskets, Wash-Wax-All, cleaning rags... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Just now, carusoam said: See if this helps... 100hrs 10gal per hour 4$/gal... 4amu for fuel... A couple oil changes... a few hundred bucks if you leave it in an expensive place... check the price of oil and filter at aircraft spruce... Three to four days for a mechanic to do an annual? 8 hour days Add a day in case my memory isn’t any good... Does the house get $100 each hour a mechanic works on your bird where you are? 3.2amu according to my math... According to my math... my M20C would cost me about 8amu to enjoy for a year... Add the extra amu if I didn’t have M20C experience... Storing it in your hangar... 150 X 12 ... 1.8amu... Throw in a few sodas, a couple of beach passes, and a dinner for that person sitting next to you... Roughly 10AMU... Don’t break anything... PP showing how math can be done...we have a mathematician and some spreadsheets around here... -a- Yeah, that's the best way to fool yourself Sorry, but your list is missing a BUNCH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Mike, I don’t ever add these up for my own bird... It isn’t good for my health... My C lived outdoors for more than $100 each month... I did help on each annual... saved about a day’s work... And the kids aren't done with college yet... My C didn’t get any fancy subscriptions... Its loran went offline during my ownership... I didn’t get IR’d until my M20C went to the next care taker... Pb, Make sure the plane is really IR ready... Mine was close, but not close enough... that cost me a decade of not having the IR... pre-MS days... Day care is expensive... compared to Airplane care... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 8 hours ago, carusoam said: Compared to children... The most expensive Mooney yearly upkeep is just a drop in the bucket... -a- It depends on whether or not you can put them to work! My two boys paid their own way from about 15 to 18. Even before that, I almost never had to write big checks at least not until college. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemzzz Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 I think keeping track of your ownership expenses is ill advised. It's demotivating and you lose plausible deniability if your partner finds the spreadsheet. I recommend at least storing this spreadsheet in a folder called "Definitely Not Poor Taste Porn" so it is less likely to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 10 hours ago, Pilot boy said: I have read some of your posts on here. What is your average for annual maintenance on that last M20C you had? Is $12k per year around right for keeping it flying? Hangar and insurance separate. I plan to pay for the plane in cash so no interest charges or payments. Sounds good on the don't buy the fixer upper. I will look for something better. First a disclaimer. Shit can happen. But... I maintain that the more careful you are with the up front purchase, the less your yearly costs will be. I looked at every C and E on the market for a few months. My budget allowed me to buy a low end E or a high end C. So I bought the best, most expensive C advertised in the country at the time. It had been very well maintained and was flying regularly. I had a very thorough pre-buy where a few things were fixed at the sellers expense. My annuals after that were about $2500. I added an engine monitor and ADSB. I replaced two tires. Hangar, Insurance, Oil changes, Fuel. At $15K a year all in including fuel, oil, hangar, insurance, maintenance, everything, I could fly as much as I wanted. Which turned out to be about 200 hours per year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 43 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: First a disclaimer. Shit can happen. But... I maintain that the more careful you are with the up front purchase, the less your yearly costs will be. I looked at every C and E on the market for a few months. My budget allowed me to buy a low end E or a high end C. So I bought the best, most expensive C advertised in the country at the time. It had been very well maintained and was flying regularly. I had a very thorough pre-buy where a few things were fixed at the sellers expense. My annuals after that were about $2500. I added an engine monitor and ADSB. I replaced two tires. Hangar, Insurance, Oil changes, Fuel. At $15K a year all in including fuel, oil, hangar, insurance, maintenance, everything, I could fly as much as I wanted. Which turned out to be about 200 hours per year. I think that is the benefit of buying a C that is in really good shape and not wanting for much. But then you miss out on the fun of writing all those checks to pay for repairs and improvements! Buying the best airplane you can afford helps to avoid the problem you address in this next point: On 4/5/2020 at 9:38 PM, gsxrpilot said: The problem is that "little bit of fixing up" will cost 2X to 4X what you save off the purchase price. As an example, the difference between a $35K M20C and a $60K M20C will not be $25K but probably closer to $50K or $60K. Which is the trajectory our C is on. But we love her and we have bonded doing much of the owner permitted work ourselves. Someday we'll make somebody a hell of a deal on a 70 y.o. airplane. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said: But we love her and we have bonded doing much of the owner permitted work ourselves. Someday we'll make somebody a hell of a deal on a 70 y.o. airplane. I love this! And I often think/dream of doing something similar myself. If I'm retired with time and money to spend on a project. If my wife is understanding and frees up my time and money to spend on the project. If I have a hangar close (walking distance from the house). If I have a friendly A&P/IA close by who's willing to sign log books while I do the work. If I have another airplane (Mooney) in ready-to-fly airworthy condition that I can use in the mean time. Then I'd like to find an M20E that needs everything. I'd like to build it into a very light, very slick, very fast, two seat, short body Mooney. But... if I'm a thirty something with a business to run, a family to raise, and an itching to fly... buy something ready to fly now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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