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Missile vs M20K


MICKEY

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Sold my F about 2 months ago.  Lots of sellers remorse, but it seems like a great time to get back in and buy a faster plane with longer legs.

550 TT, PP/ IR,  High altitude, High performance. Have a good insurance quote on both so that isn't an issue.

400nm every 2-4 weeks, and 900nm missions every 3-4 months.  Formation flying when able. 

Looking for input from those who own a Missile.  Thoughts on the 550A and the J airframe. The one I'm looking at has the 100gal conversion.

And for the K looking for a 231 w/ 252 FWF or 252.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Mickey.

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252s are way factory cool! In a ZR1 kind of way...

Rockets and Missiles are so Callaway.... take the best and make it even better....

 

Now... really, turbo or NA?

Time to get that worked out...

 

1)

O2  OK?

Trips over 200nm all the time?

Flight levels, long distances?

Enjoy Modern day sailing, looking for incredible winds...

Love planning flights around weather systems?

Neighborhood MEAs are 12k’...

Using for work trips to unlimited destinations...

These are all reasons to want to seek a turbo, intercooler, and controller... and possibly some TKS...

Go Rocket!

 

2)

Family looks funny in Ox masks... 

Don’t like playing doctor, checking ox saturations for more than one person...

Don’t care for building a personal Ocascade system for your hangar...

Only climb above the local Bravo at 12k’...

Never want to climb over a weather system...

Go Missile!


It is hard to limit your choices...

It is easy to say... I want it all...

Do you want to take the effort required to climb into the FLs...

Or is 12.5k’ where you want to be...


I want to be a 310hp Acclaim pilot...

Some people make this look so easy... while not having to be a pro-pilot... find Joe Z...

I went M20R... just because it made sense...

 

Really tough choice...

Flying up and down the East coast... no tall mountains to conquer... Turbo not required... NA is fine...

But, that long of a flight, FLs are better speed and efficiency...

 

Now...

are you a turbo guy, NA guy, or a TN guy?

 

Want to ask a Missile guy the question... find Seth... ask how he got to where he is...

Inviting @Seth to joint the Missile conversation... and @RogueOne and Job who’s screen name is a S/N.... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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5 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Missile is gonna be faster at those altitudes. the fuel flow difference will be negligible at best. Missile is a 190 knot plane at 10k. the a 231 with a 252 power plant is not.

Also a Missile is “KISS” - Keep It Simple Stupid. It is simple, strong and forgiving. Engine management is elementary. You can power your way out of many conditions that a smaller engine can’t. You dial the engine back if you want efficiency or push it to the firewall you want speed, climb like a bat out of hell or to lift a full useful load.   It also has the Monroy long range tanks (100 gal). Fuel management is simple too because the outboard tanks flow into the inboard ones. There are only 2 fuel selector positions even with the extra extended tanks.  Its  either “Right” or “Left”. None of the complex nonsense like on Bonanzas or Cessna 310s with tip tanks.  

I had my J converted to a Missile nearly 20 years ago. When the family was younger our trips were with all four seats filled. As commented above, family flights are best appreciated below 12,500 without O2. I think it’s important to look at real world performance rather than just flat out level speed. Our frequent trips between Sugar Land and Albuquerque (633 nm direct although few more around military and Restricted areas) are generally about 4 hours (curiously generally either way). Other frequent trips clear across Texas, from Texas Tech in Lubbock to Sugar Land,  (400 nm direct) were about 2.5 hours. I recall one trip where another local father in a Cirrus SR22 was also flying his daughter back to.Sugar Land at the same altitude ( I think 9,500).  I took off after him and passed him midway. 

I avoid grass or dirt fields There is too much weight on the front gear and not a lot of prop clearance. A bumpy surface or rut can make the plane pitch and bounce enough to nick the tips. Also if the ground is moist or soft, you will need help or a tug to move it. Check the prop carefully - it is full feathering used only on 3 planes.  Check the engine mounts for droop and the landing gear Lord disks for compression. Both will reduce prop clearance. I recently had excessive wear on the lower two-thirds portion of the 2 piece spinner right under the big center nut that holds it to the low pitch stop on the piston chamber. Think of it as a large curved aluminum salad bowl with a big hole in the center of the flat base. Hartzell charges a cool $2,000 for that one piece of aluminum and it took them 6 weeks to make it. The full spinner (2 nose pieces plus backing plate) is $4,000. None existed in the US. 

For some reason corrosion in the tail pipe (a Rocket Engineering specific design) is a problem in Missiles. (No corrosion in the heater however - zero problem there).  I know of one Missile owner in Houston who lost the tail piece while flying.

The IO550A is tightly cowled and tends to run a bit hot.  You have to watch cylinder temperature when climbing out on hot summer days in Texas  (especially if idling or taxiing an extended time at a busy Class C or B airport waiting for clearance).  I just shallow out or level my climb at slightly reduced rpm to stabilize temps before resuming.  The Continental fuel injection nozzles are quite well balanced and temps are even.

i do not have speed brakes and don’t really see the need.  I have flown considerable times into Class B (Houston, Dallas) and some Class C where they ask for speed to stay ahead of the jets and then drop you in to land. I just reduce power, pitch up rather aggressively, drop the gear and add half flaps to kill speed and then lose altitude.  The same is true when crossing the Monzano or Sandia Mountains anywhere from 10,500 - 12, 500  ft.  and then quickly dropping into the Albuquerque Sunport at 5,300 ft. I will admit that I have dropped gear and flaps at speeds above those recommended or posted in the POH at times in the past; however over 20 years it does not seemed to have caused any problems. 

I have not needed to source anything from Rocket Engineering which is a good thing since they no longer support the Missile or Rocket.   My A&P is able to find alternate suppliers or repair shops for the few Rocket Engineering unique parts.

Make sure that it has the plywood battery board that Rocket Engineering originally cut for the plane.  It is an odd shape and you need it to slide the battery box from the tail. (2 batteries in box). 
 

Good luck 

Edited by 1980Mooney
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19 hours ago, MICKEY said:

1. why? 2. What’s the cost? I’m below 12k most of the time. 

1.  Raw, un-fettered, fire-breathing POWER. 2.$125-150k probably.

12K, 65% power  17 gph:  195 KTAS easy. Loafing. not even trying hard. Quiet and smooth like a turbine at 2200 rpm.

Because short of a $350k+ Acclaim it's the meanest mutha in the valley.

also, it's beautiful...

20190827_222538.jpg

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12 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

I have not needed to source anything from Rocket Engineering which is a good thing since they no longer support the Missile or Rocket.   My A&P is able to find alternate suppliers or repair shops for the few Rocket Engineering unique parts.

 

I have on three occasions during my 10+ years owning needed something from rocket engineering - a data plate, a new exhaust stack and a bit of work on the cage, and in all these not only were they helpful, efficient, reasonably priced and a pleasure - I would say they were better than the mooney factory themselves.  This company is thriving - although now largely with their piper turbine offerings, but a good company.  Also there is another fellow on here that got some exhaust stack work from them last month I think and he too describes a good experience - to me anyway he described so, but I would let him speak for himself.

Anyway I would not hesitate in the least on these grounds to buy a rocket engineering product whether missile or rocket.

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Did I hear someone say Rocket?

I personally Prefer the 252 FWF C-414...:)..:)..:)

Yes they are Heavy on the nose wheel an Hard on the Fuel consumption, but with proper operation it’s not that bad in terms of MPG.

As far as grass field operations go, Call ahead an get a solid pirep on the fields conditions.

 

My Rocket Goes Into Gastons(3M0) on a regular basis with no Ill effects, just try an keep the bouncing to a minimum an keep the nose as light as possible.

0280E0DC-8B77-4B7E-8781-2955B975B35F.png

Edited by Cody Stallings
Fat Fingers
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On 3/30/2020 at 2:00 AM, 1980Mooney said:

Also a Missile is “KISS” - Keep It Simple Stupid. It is simple, strong and forgiving. Engine management is elementary. You can power your way out of many conditions that a smaller engine can’t. You dial the engine back if you want efficiency or push it to the firewall you want speed, climb like a bat out of hell or to lift a full useful load.   It also has the Monroy long range tanks (100 gal). Fuel management is simple too because the outboard tanks flow into the inboard ones. There are only 2 fuel selector positions even with the extra extended tanks.  Its  either “Right” or “Left”. None of the complex nonsense like on Bonanzas or Cessna 310s with tip tanks.  

My Bonanza only has Left/Right, the same as a Mooney. Comparing a twin with a single isn't fair but regardless later model Barons, Senecas and Cessna 337s, only have one tank per engine so they are even easier than a Mooney - you never switch a tank at all for normal operations.

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8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would seriously be tempted by a 252 based Rocket. Both @PJClark and @Cody Stallings are prime examples. I do like the amazing range of my factory 252. But some days you just want power and speed!

Going to respectfully disagree... sort of...  The reality is that you gain very little by paying any extra for a 252 rocket vs a 231 rocket.   The extra speed they achieved in the 252 over the 231 was largely due to going to FL280 (over FL240).  I understand they have extra soundproofing as well.  I am not saying there arent benefits and if both are sitting there for the same price, all else being equal the 252 would be better.  But I wouldnt spend an extra 15k for the 252.

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:01 PM, MICKEY said:

1. why? 2. What’s the cost? I’m below 12k most of the time. 

Are you below 12 k because you couldn't easily go there before?

Remember, the rocket climbs at about 130 knots and 1000 FPM...  You can be to FL180 in 18 min!    Here is a recent flight I did in my rocket... Keep in mind I did a high speed cruise climb and was at gross.  https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N305RK/history/20200325/1630Z/KGGG/KCWV

 

Burned 54gallons.

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1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

Going to respectfully disagree... sort of...  The reality is that you gain very little by paying any extra for a 252 rocket vs a 231 rocket.   The extra speed they achieved in the 252 over the 231 was largely due to going to FL280 (over FL240).  I understand they have extra soundproofing as well.  I am not saying there arent benefits and if both are sitting there for the same price, all else being equal the 252 would be better.  But I wouldnt spend an extra 15k for the 252.

I would and I did. Actually I paid a large premium for a 252 over a 231. I will agree with you that the gap between the 231 and 252 Rockets is quite a bit less then the gap between the factory 231's and 252's. But back when I flew an M20C, even though I'd saved at least $20K over a similarly equipped M20E, I always wished it was an E. It was not a huge thing, but a lot of little things. And the more hours you fly, the smaller that difference in purchase price is. 

I estimate the difference in purchase price between my 252 and the 231 I could have purchased was between $40K and $50K. Now four years later, it was worth every penny. 

Hell, the removable back seats are almost worth the $15K :D But then I think there are a few 231's that got those back seats as well.

Again, not speaking of the Rocket variants. But my factory 252 will run away from a factory 231 at all altitudes. And I can do it without cooking the engine. 

I flew the 252 today. I didn't go anywhere. But it was good to be in the air. Some days I wish I had a Rocket, but most days I just couldn't be happier with my factory 252... unless it was a FIKI Encore... :rolleyes:

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14 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would and I did. Actually I paid a large premium for a 252 over a 231. I will agree with you that the gap between the 231 and 252 Rockets is quite a bit less then the gap between the factory 231's and 252's. But back when I flew an M20C, even though I'd saved at least $20K over a similarly equipped M20E, I always wished it was an E. It was not a huge thing, but a lot of little things. And the more hours you fly, the smaller that difference in purchase price is. 

I estimate the difference in purchase price between my 252 and the 231 I could have purchased was between $40K and $50K. Now four years later, it was worth every penny. 

Hell, the removable back seats are almost worth the $15K :D But then I think there are a few 231's that got those back seats as well.

Again, not speaking of the Rocket variants. But my factory 252 will run away from a factory 231 at all altitudes. And I can do it without cooking the engine. 

I flew the 252 today. I didn't go anywhere. But it was good to be in the air. Some days I wish I had a Rocket, but most days I just couldn't be happier with my factory 252... unless it was a FIKI Encore... :rolleyes:

Out of curiosity, what are your cruise numbers at various altitudes?

 

I have no doubt your 252 is faster than a 231... but that is not what I am talking about.. I am talking about when you convert each to a rocket... I believe the differences are minimal.

 

here is a link to an article (you have probably seen it) that shows the improvements made to the 231 to make the 252.  http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K252_evaluation_report.htm

They did the inner gear doors ( 3 knot gain)

Cooling improvements that slightly reduced drag

and cert to FL280

many of the other changes had no impact on speed.

As an example... Take a 231 at FL 240 -30 degrees indicating 136 kias and you are doing 201 true (231 MPH)

Take those exact same numbers but at FL280 and you are doing 219 true (252 MPH)...

that is not a coincidence.  It is physics.

 

The speed improvements to the 252 over the 231 are because of the 280 certification.

 

 

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@Austintatious I just went through the 231/252/Rocket/Missile search and decision making process and the largest drawback between the 231/252 is the lack of intercooler/automatic wastegate, which has a sizeable impact on performance due to the critical altitude -- 24k vs 14k. Additionally the initial 231 engine had some cooling issues. Naturally a rocket conversion eliminates these problems. Other considerations were: 14V, limited cowl flap positions, and single vs dual alternator. Am I recalling correctly all Rockets have a single alternator? The capability of these planes encourages lots of avionics and the 14V system can limit you depending how much you want to put in.

In the end, for me, it was between a TKS 252 Rocket and a TKS Encore that just came up at the last minute that checked every box I wanted and I pulled the trigger. Like @gsxrpilot I have moments where I wish I'd chosen the Rocket, but the other 95% of the time I'm very happy with my choice. The perks of the 252, in my eyes, justify the price especially if not equipped with the intercooler and autowastegate mods.

Most of my time is just under 18k since I don't have my O2D2 yet. I show around 176KTAS burning 10.5ish GPH LOP. 168KTAS around 12-13k, same burn. I suspect a stock 252 will show similar without TKS.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, smwash02 said:

@Austintatious I just went through the 231/252/Rocket/Missile search and decision making process and the largest drawback between the 231/252 is the lack of intercooler/automatic wastegate, which has a sizeable impact on performance due to the critical altitude -- 24k vs 14k. Additionally the initial 231 engine had some cooling issues. Naturally a rocket conversion eliminates these problems. Other considerations were: 14V, limited cowl flap positions, and single vs dual alternator. Am I recalling correctly all Rockets have a single alternator? The capability of these planes encourages lots of avionics and the 14V system can limit you depending how much you want to put in.

In the end, for me, it was between a TKS 252 Rocket and a TKS Encore that just came up at the last minute that checked every box I wanted and I pulled the trigger. Like @gsxrpilot I have moments where I wish I'd chosen the Rocket, but the other 95% of the time I'm very happy with my choice. The perks of the 252, in my eyes, justify the price especially if not equipped with the intercooler and autowastegate mods.

Most of my time is just under 18k since I don't have my O2D2 yet. I show around 176KTAS burning 10.5ish GPH LOP. 168KTAS around 12-13k, same burn. I suspect a stock 252 will show similar without TKS.

O2D2 is nice - you will like!

I think a 252 airframe is a tad bit nicer/faster aerodynamics primarily due to the inner gear doors and smooth belly.  Some 231 rockets have the smooth belly.  Mine does not.  I have 2 stage gear doors - 252 has 3 stage right?

14v vs 28v.  That is worth something too.  But I switched to all LED lights and now it seems I can run everything all at once, lights, pitot heat, tks (which is a big draw).  So this seems less important.  The second alternator would be nice.  But maybe less important in a rocket since you have those two big 35mamp batteries in the tail.

But the engine setup is the same in a rocket of any variety.  Same identical.

A 252 rocket is probably worth the trouble a bit more than a 231 for these reasons but the marginal difference is much less than a standard 252 vs a standard engine 231 where the greatest benefit is the engine itself.

I was shopping a tks airplane as well that also further narrows the field. I have had this airplane for over 10 years and I plan on keeping it awhile longer. Its a hot rod.

 

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Paul I have to agree.

When I was in my F model, every J I seen I wanted to Hijack!!!

I had never seen a Rocket before this thing showed up, I don’t think it was actually 100% for sale when I ended up with it. But there are no complaints on my end thus far.

There is just something about 1500fpm to 18K, then 1000-1200fpm to FL240 while sucking 3 oil wells dry that just turns my Crank!!!

One of the more Common Complaints about the Rocket is the FF, however if you have time to kill you can always pull some knobs back an slow it down.

Yes it’s more Costly to Operate, Yes it’s more Costly to FEED. But I don’t know that I would trade it for anything short of a Howard 500.

 

BTW——> I never have time to Kill

A8F9C31C-F712-40D2-8656-FCF3FE8F4C3B.jpeg

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Thanks @aviatoreb, I'm looking forward to it! Still wish we could get the built in kit, but I digress.

I thought they both had the inner doors, but I can't recall. You make a good point about the transition to LEDs -- this largest solves that and with the Rocket's two batteries you're probably better off than even having dual alternators. When I ran my single battery dead in Colorado I wish I'd had a second :)

While typing this I remembered you have the 4 blade prop -- love how it looks. Is it heated or do you have the slinger?

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