Annual Inspection; new A&P/IA see things others haven't

[tigers2007]

My new A&P/IA at my new field (moved here last year) is about 90% completed with the inspection portion of the annual and he said he wanted to go over things. So what I expected to be a 15 minute conversation turned out to be about 65 minutes. He had several pages of squawks. A couple things blew me away. He said that when he went to grease the prop (Hartzell 3 blade) it took 65, 105, and 50 pumps per zerk before any grease would ooze out of the vent. WTF! He found so many things that have been overlooked by two A&P/IA's since I bought this thing in September 2016. Apparently no one has removed the wing inspection panels completely for a very long time; almost all of the screws were so corroded that he had to spend three hours drilling them out. The strobe and Century auto pilot wiring has been chaffing on the rib lightening holes for 20 and 40 years, respectively. The right aileron bellcrank is so out-of-rig that it bends the rib at full deflection (left doesn't do that). The rear seat wasn't even bolted down. There is this weird tear in the floor skin that is under the rear seat at the right right corner. Etc. Etc. Lots of little things. We found a nice sized indentation into the tail sheet metal just in front of the rear tail hook that no one has ever noticed. Not sure how to fix that one. The front nose gear has slop very similar to Alex's (Parts not in stock at LASAR). We found an oddball weld-repair job on the right lower engine mount and may have to pull the mount and send it off. All of the engine hoses oil and fuel hoses are 25-years old. The hydraulic and fuel hoses in the fuselage appear to be 56 years old and are very krusty. Wow my first annual/prebuy in 2016 was $14,800 (includes LED landing light, Insight G1 GEM, Reiff heater, shoulder belts,cracked rear spar SB repair, etc.). My subsequent annuals were $1500 base plus parts that I supplied from Aircraft Spruce. I'm thinking about selling this bird and I think I'm going to have to hold on to it a while after this annual. I feel that if these things were brought up during my prebuy, my pricing strategy would have been a little more aggressive. I'm glad this AMT has eagle eyes.

[Guest]

Time for a refresher on propeller hub greasing.  You may want to speak with Cody Stallings, but that sound like a lot of grease.

Clarence

https://hartzellprop.com/wp-content/uploads/115N-0000-R22-WA.pdf

[EricJ]

Sounds like your prop may have been significantly overserviced and might need some remedy to get the excess grease out.

Many of the things on your list do not sound like airworthiness items to me.

Whenever there's a big difference between IAs like that there are two legitimate questions:   1) Did your last IA miss a lot of stuff?   2) Is this new IA finding too many things and needlessly costing you money?    Can't tell from your description which is true, but the prop thing sounds like it needs investigating.

I bought my airplane right after it had been essentially held hostage by an IA that did a four-month-long annual inspection.   It took a couple of years to undo all the damage that guy did, some of which was very serious, and I'm still having to correct things that come up that were "fixed" during that annual.   The length or number of squawks on an annual is not a reliable metric for the quality of the annual.

 

[tigers2007]

Yeah I've read the A&P horror stories over and over. This guy is more thorough than anyone I've ever seen. This is what I have heard from several GA A&P's regarding servicing greased hubs: you pump in grease until some oozes out. I have heard that from at least four A&P/IA's. Maybe @Cody Stallings can comment? (HC-C3YR-1RF)

[tigers2007]

This part in Hartzell's 115N manual that @M20Doc posted interests me:

Pump a maximum of 1 fl. oz. (30 ml) grease into the
lubrication fitting, or until grease emerges from the hole
where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was
removed, whichever occurs first.

In the latter case, the hub would theoretically be full of grease?

Warning: you may sleep if you watch this Hartzell YouTube video too long. He specifically notes that if it has a steel hub to pump it until it oozes. Wow I need to find out if mine has an aluminum or steel hub.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

This part in Hartzell's 115N manual that @M20Doc posted interests me:

Pump a maximum of 1 fl. oz. (30 ml) grease into the
lubrication fitting, or until grease emerges from the hole
where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was
removed, whichever occurs first.

In the latter case, the hub would theoretically be full of grease?

Warning: you may sleep if you watch this Hartzell YouTube video too long. He specifically notes that if it has a steel hub to pump it until it oozes. Wow I need to find out if mine has an aluminum or steel hub.

By your model number you own an aluminum compact hub propeller.  More than 30 years ago I too was taught to remove the trailing edge grease fitting and pump new grease in until clean fresh grease comes out the open hole.  Now it’s the one ounce method.

Clarence

[takair]

Feels like it’s confession time.  Ref prop servicing, I too was taught to pump until it comes from the other removed zero hole, or that’s what I recalled.  This goes back about 30 years now.  Well, that bad information cost me dearly on an annual where I filled a customers  hub with grease.  The goal is to grease the bearing, not the entire hub.  The owner realized this after He really questioned the amount o grease he witnessed me pumping and called Hartzell who recommended removal.  Anyway, off came the prop at my expense.  Nobody made out well with that annual.   I assume many are flying around like this since this practice seems to continue in spite of our mistakes.  Will be curious to hear Cody’s take on this.

[Cody Stallings]

7 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

My new A&P/IA at my new field (moved here last year) is about 90% completed with the inspection portion of the annual and he said he wanted to go over things. So what I expected to be a 15 minute conversation turned out to be about 65 minutes. He had several pages of squawks. A couple things blew me away. He said that when he went to grease the prop (Hartzell 3 blade) it took 65, 105, and 50 pumps per zerk before any grease would ooze out of the vent. WTF! He found so many things that have been overlooked by two A&P/IA's since I bought this thing in September 2016. Apparently no one has removed the wing inspection panels completely for a very long time; almost all of the screws were so corroded that he had to spend three hours drilling them out. The strobe and Century auto pilot wiring has been chaffing on the rib lightening holes for 20 and 40 years, respectively. The right aileron bellcrank is so out-of-rig that it bends the rib at full deflection (left doesn't do that). The rear seat wasn't even bolted down. There is this weird tear in the floor skin that is under the rear seat at the right right corner. Etc. Etc. Lots of little things. We found a nice sized indentation into the tail sheet metal just in front of the rear tail hook that no one has ever noticed. Not sure how to fix that one. The front nose gear has slop very similar to Alex's (Parts not in stock at LASAR). We found an oddball weld-repair job on the right lower engine mount and may have to pull the mount and send it off. All of the engine hoses oil and fuel hoses are 25-years old. The hydraulic and fuel hoses in the fuselage appear to be 56 years old and are very krusty. Wow my first annual/prebuy in 2016 was $14,800 (includes LED landing light, Insight G1 GEM, Reiff heater, shoulder belts,cracked rear spar SB repair, etc.). My subsequent annuals were $1500 base plus parts that I supplied from Aircraft Spruce. I'm thinking about selling this bird and I think I'm going to have to hold on to it a while after this annual. I feel that if these things were brought up during my prebuy, my pricing strategy would have been a little more aggressive. I'm glad this AMT has eagle eyes.

Sir, your propeller now has grease in it in places it’s not supposed to have grease.

Your anal A&P should have pulled his head out of his own Anal Cavity about 160 pumps earlier!!

Your propeller will probably have a different vibration to it now, an at some point in the near future it WILL acquire a Grease leak.

The method of servicing propellers from 20/30 yrs ago is still the best method.

1oz of grease or till grease is seen coming out is okay, that means it’s full.... That’s good.

However grease is like engine oil, needs to be changed sometimes. It will have moisture in it an broken down discolored grease that needs to be purged out!! If done properly with some self governing this is rarely a problem to perform.

You have a grease gun that is capable of putting  more grease in the prop than can be vented off from the other side of the hub where you remove the fitting(or 106545 pipe plug in newer props) So don’t pump it fast.

If the venting hole is clean of no dried out grease or obstruction you can then slowly pump all of the dirty grease out without worry. If the venting hole is plugged or grease is pumped in to fast you will end up filling the center section of the hub where the fork an actuating components are(where you don’t want a lot of grease).

I personally like to put 3 pumps in the grease fitting that I plan to pull out for the vent. Those 3 pumps loosen up any obstructions an allow grease an trash to flow out from service the opposite fitting.

This is what the inside of your propeller now looks like. The grease in the center could possibly in cold weather make your propeller actuate more sluggishly. Definitely when cycling your propeller.

looking at the picture coming inboard from the blade Quad Seal you have the Thrust Bearing Race an the Blade Pre-Load Plate. In between those two parts you can see where the grease is at. That’s where it is supposed to be. It’s the only place in a Hartzell propeller that is supposed to be greased.

The grease in the center section is a result of over serving via 90MPH pumping the grease gun handle(A&P admitted it). Said he’s not going to invest 30/45 min servicing the propeller cause he can’t charge for that. 

 

Also, why I’m howling here, let’s go one step further.

Lets take a look at that grease. The Color of it, it’s contamination level. That’s AeroShell #6(Yellow Grease)back when it was still decent grease. Yes it’s got a lot of miles on it visually, there is no doubt about that.

Now let’s go back to the 115N Manuel an the 1oz serving guidance.

Now in seeing What most people don’t see inside of their propellers, would you expect 1oz to take care of the service an continued air worthiness of your $13,500 investment that hauls you an your family around? The most highly stressed single component via centrifugal loading on the aircraft?

Not this Guy. I’m gonna keep the cleanest grease in my propeller as possible. Less probability of corrosion ect, an I sleep better at night.

Alright, it’s late I’m tired an I’m done Bitching.

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Cody Stallings

[Cody Stallings]

6 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

This part in Hartzell's 115N manual that @M20Doc posted interests me:

Pump a maximum of 1 fl. oz. (30 ml) grease into the
lubrication fitting, or until grease emerges from the hole
where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was
removed, whichever occurs first.

In the latter case, the hub would theoretically be full of grease?

Warning: you may sleep if you watch this Hartzell YouTube video too long. He specifically notes that if it has a steel hub to pump it until it oozes. Wow I need to find out if mine has an aluminum or steel hub.

You have an Aluminum Hub.

[Andy95W]

The oddball weld on the engine mount sounds a lot like the AD repair.  Have him check SB M20-175.

[tigers2007]

Thank you for your insight Cody!
I’m curious why Hartzell mentions the part about “...or until grease emerges from the hole where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was removed, whichever occurs first.” as that would imply that the hub is filled with grease.
Well it now seems that the prior A&P/IA’s “got it right” by not over-servicing the grease.

[takair]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

Thank you for your insight Cody!
I’m curious why Hartzell mentions the part about “...or until grease emerges from the hole where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was removed, whichever occurs first.” as that would imply that the hub is filled with grease.
Well it now seems that the prior A&P/IA’s “got it right” by not over-servicing the grease.

I’m no prop expert, but I suspect the OR until the grease comes out is for a bearing that is greased regularly and has not managed to settle, evaporate(?) or leak down.  I imagine an aircraft that is hangared and barely flown between annuals might see this condition.  

[Yooper Rocketman]

Ed,

Be careful with this guy.  He SHOULD HAVE BEEN AWARE of the hub grease limitation.  He seems a little zealous to me.  Also, pick your "Airworthy" items and concentrate on those.  You can progressively (over time) fix some of the other stuff, making this a more affordable annual.  I was talking to Chad Kubick (Kubick Aviation) a few years ago about how much longer my squawk lists were when I did my annuals than when he did, fully admitting I'm a lot more picky and didn't want someone buying my Rocket that questioned what kind of annuals I was doing.  I did a lot of them, but always had him do one every few years for a different set of eyes.  (When he was really busy, he would ask me to do my own annual with Steve and Mark , my A&P best friend and the other an IA that does a lot of work for me). He said "if we wrote up everything YOU wrote up, we would never get anyone returning for work again".  He was correct.  My labor is a lot cheaper than his shops.  And, I was being extra fussy.

Sounds like your guy is doing that too.  Maybe he's trying to make a name for himself but, in the end, you will still be writing the check.

Tom

 

[Cody Stallings]

4 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Thank you for your insight Cody!
I’m curious why Hartzell mentions the part about “...or until grease emerges from the hole where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was removed, whichever occurs first.” as that would imply that the hub is filled with grease.
Well it now seems that the prior A&P/IA’s “got it right” by not over-servicing the grease.

The actual hub isn’t filled with grease.

Each bearing cavity is filled with grease individually.

The way the OP propeller is now, most likely you would be able to remove 5 of the grease fittings an put grease in the 1 fitting an see grease coming out of the other 5.

That means the entire hub is completely full of grease.

[tigers2007]

I spoke with a Hartzell Propeller tech this morning who parroted what @Cody Stallings said. In his opinion the propeller is no longer airworthy until it is removed an examined. I spoke with the A&P/IA working the plane and advised him that there is a problem with the propeller servicing. He later contacts Hartzell and calls me back and says that Hartzell stated it would be okay to test and check for vibration. If there are no issues detected then it is okay to fly. He said that his Hartzell service manual revision was off by like 20 revisions. Any thoughts? 

[SSimpson77]

12 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I spoke with a Hartzell Propeller tech this morning who parroted what @Cody Stallings said. In his opinion the propeller is no longer airworthy until it is removed an examined. I spoke with the A&P/IA working the plane and advised him that there is a problem with the propeller servicing. He later contacts Hartzell and calls me back and says that Hartzell stated it would be okay to test and check for vibration. If there are no issues detected then it is okay to fly. He said that his Hartzell service manual revision was by like 20 revisions. Any thoughts? 

Newbie here, but I would suggest an email chain with the Hartzell technician and your A&P/IA with what Hartzell recommends. If Hartzell is willing to say test it and proceed further, then okay. I’m not a gambling man, but I think I know what he’s gonna recommend when it’s in writing. 

[EricJ]

19 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Any thoughts? 

Find another IA. 

[carusoam]

Sounds like there is a lot of unaccounted for grease in the prop... that has escaped through a seal...

If it didn’t cost anything to look... my prop would be on Cody’s table getting pics taken....

It would most likely look like the prop, that is on Cody’s table...

Next order of the day is probably cleaning out the excess grease, and replacing seals...

 

How old are the current seals? It may be time for replacement...

Cody has done a great job of educating us on proper grease, where it belongs, and what happens as the grease ages... and proper technique of pushing grease in and out of the prop...

Thanks Cody!

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ron McBride]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

I spoke with a Hartzell Propeller tech this morning who parroted what @Cody Stallings said. In his opinion the propeller is no longer airworthy until it is removed an examined. I spoke with the A&P/IA working the plane and advised him that there is a problem with the propeller servicing. He later contacts Hartzell and calls me back and says that Hartzell stated it would be okay to test and check for vibration. If there are no issues detected then it is okay to fly. He said that his Hartzell service manual revision was by like 20 revisions. Any thoughts? 

It’s your money, and your but in the left seat, kids, wife. You’re choice.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

10 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

He said "if we wrote up everything YOU wrote up, we would never get anyone returning for work again". 

I find I have had to urge the average A&P mechanic to be more picky when working on my planes:  They have been conditioned by CBs to ignore the “small stuff.”   

[Andy95W]

19 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

I spoke with a Hartzell Propeller tech this morning who parroted what @Cody Stallings said. In his opinion the propeller is no longer airworthy until it is removed an examined. I spoke with the A&P/IA working the plane and advised him that there is a problem with the propeller servicing. He later contacts Hartzell and calls me back and says that Hartzell stated it would be okay to test and check for vibration. If there are no issues detected then it is okay to fly. He said that his Hartzell service manual revision was off by like 20 revisions. Any thoughts? 

I would at least test run it for a few minutes to check, just like Hartzell told your A&P.

1 fl. oz. of grease is actually quite a bit.  Per the manual, it says a maximum of 1 fl. oz into the fitting- and your 3-blade prop has 3 fittings- so 3 fluid ounces.  That's almost 1/4 of the tube of grease!  If your A&P hadn't burped his grease gun very well, or maybe exaggerated the number of pumps, he might have only put 3 fluid ounces of grease into your prop- I think that may be why Hartzell gave the recommendation it did.  But I think I'd mostly defer to Cody.

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

I spoke with a Hartzell Propeller tech this morning who parroted what @Cody Stallings said. In his opinion the propeller is no longer airworthy until it is removed an examined. I spoke with the A&P/IA working the plane and advised him that there is a problem with the propeller servicing. He later contacts Hartzell and calls me back and says that Hartzell stated it would be okay to test and check for vibration. If there are no issues detected then it is okay to fly. He said that his Hartzell service manual revision was off by like 20 revisions. Any thoughts? 

My thoughts are that he’s not nearly as thorough as you thought.  Furthermore, he’s obviously not communicating with other professionals in the industry. This isn’t new knowledge. My prop shop gave me a tour over a decade ago and at that time they were plagued with reseals due to IA’s over servicing aluminum hub Hartzell props at annual.  It’s been written about on these pages for many years. You kind of have to live under an aviation maintenance rock to not know better...

[RLCarter]

On 3/18/2020 at 4:26 AM, tigers2007 said:

I’m curious why Hartzell mentions the part about “...or until grease emerges from the hole where the lubrication fitting or lubrication hole plug was removed, whichever occurs first.”

You have to look on both sides of the “OR” statement. 

[tigers2007]

You have to look on both sides of the “OR” statement. 

Cody explained how only injecting 1oz could result in grease emerging from the vent without any filling the internals and also mentions how, if done carefully, how the old grease can be flushed without filling into the hub.

I spoke with Hartzell today after sending them an email. We had a long conversation and he also responded with an email. He was the tech that spoke with my A&P yesterday morning. He said that each prop bearing will hold a significant amount of grease. Here are the main points from their email:

“The correct greasing procedures can be found in Hartzell Manual 115N. This manual can always be found current on our web site at www.hartzellprop.com. Please click on the following link to be directed to the appropriate page on the web site: https://hartzellprop.com/services/product-support-library/manuals/hartzell-owners-manuals/
· Each zerk fitting is to be serviced with one fluid ounce of grease. Not sure how many pumps it takes for the mechanics grease gun to service the zerk fitting with one fluid ounce.
· The only way to verify if the propeller has been “over-serviced” is to have it disassembled by a propeller repair station.
· Overservicing with grease may cause the propeller to experience one or more of the following issues: grease leak, vibration, hydraulic lock.
· If the propeller is not leaking, can be actuated properly during pre-flight, and is not vibrating it may not have been overserviced. Again, the only way to confirm this is to disassemble the propeller.
· If the propeller is not disassembled to confirm its condition, it should be evaluated for leakage, vibration, and proper operation prior to further flight.
· Hartzell’s overhaul interval for this propeller is established in Hartzell Service Letter 61Y. I have attached this document for your reference. Hartzell mandates a six year/2,400 hour overhaul interval for this model.
· The FAA may not require Part 91 operators to follow the Hartzell mandate. I would recommend that the local FAA FSDO be contacted for clarification on this issue.”

The engine has 2250 SMOH. It leaks some oil but has good compressions and low oil consumption. An overhaul will be due sooner than later. If I overhaul the motor than I’ll IRAN the prop. If the prop runs fine and there are zero issues with grease leaking, vibration, and cycling, is it worth the trouble? I don’t feel that way right now. If this were to be pulled, then they’ll probably be an associated cost with a true IRAN that I would cover the portion of which = even more money spent. Then if the motor goes (making metal, etc) I’d probably have to IRAN the prop again.
This is what I do know: About 35oz of grease was injected at this annual. Prop installed in 2004 at the factory and 15 annuals were done. Assuming that at each annual 1oz grease was injected per prop = 45oz plus whatever the factory injected. So we can safely assume there are 6 tubes worth of grease in there.

[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

The engine has 2250 SMOH. It leaks some oil but has good compressions and low oil consumption. An overhaul will be due sooner than later. If I overhaul the motor than I’ll IRAN the prop. If the prop runs fine and there are zero issues with grease leaking, vibration, and cycling, is it worth the trouble? I don’t feel that way right now. If this were to be pulled, then they’ll probably be an associated cost with a true IRAN that I would cover the portion of which = even more money spent. Then if the motor goes (making metal, etc) I’d probably have to IRAN the prop again.

There's not a requirement to IRAN or overhaul a prop during an engine overhaul.   There is only the small additional convenience that it's already off the airplane, but that's it.

 

24 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

This is what I do know: About 35oz of grease was injected at this annual. Prop installed in 2004 at the factory and 15 annuals were done. Assuming that at each annual 1oz grease was injected per prop = 45oz plus whatever the factory injected. So we can safely assume there are 6 tubes worth of grease in there.

The reason to service greased parts periodically is that some grease naturally escapes during use, and also evaporates over time.  It doesn't just keep accumulating unless it is over serviced.