Odd ATC interaction. Real emergency?

[MooneyMitch]

Just witnessed (via radio monitoring and visual) an emergency declaration by a C182 with engine issues.

This situation certainly went much smoother than the emergency experience under discussion in this thread.

Pilot called tower requesting emergency with engine trouble.  Our controller immediately cleared all in bound traffic (sent a Skywest jet on go/around) and gave C182 direct heading to runway, stating any runway available.  Controller said when convenient, please provide number of souls on board.  Crash truck was activated.

All went well with C182 landing with smoothed out power, able to taxi to parking followed by fire truck.

All is well.

[Yetti]

Since this was on an island I am wondering if the pilot and the controller knew each other if not from the bar maybe by flying the same route each day.   This almost seems like some level of beef that was played out over the radio and it was not their first interaction.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Yetti

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

Since this was on an island I am wondering if the pilot and the controller knew each other if not from the bar maybe by flying the same route each day.   This almost seems like some level of beef that was played out over the radio and it was not their first interaction.

Very plausible.

[Greg Ellis]

An FAA search of the Tail number shows this plane is a 172 registered to Lani Sea Sky Tours which is a flight school.  Wondering if it was a solo student up flying and got caught in clouds and thought he was experiencing worse conditions than he actually was due to inexperience.  He certainly did not seem to be in a rapid descent or even a spiraling descent like he said.  Could also explain why he did not quite understand the nature of declaring an emergency and what that granted him as well as what a visual approach allowed him to do as well.  Although he did seem to understand flying victor airways.

[Ricky_231]

2 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

An FAA search of the Tail number shows this plane is a 172 registered to Lani Sea Sky Tours which is a flight school.  Wondering if it was a solo student up flying and got caught in clouds and thought he was experiencing worse conditions than he actually was due to inexperience.  He certainly did not seem to be in a rapid descent or even a spiraling descent like he said.  Could also explain why he did not quite understand the nature of declaring an emergency and what that granted him as well as what a visual approach allowed him to do as well.  Although he did seem to understand flying victor airways.

I found the below in the comments section of the video. Apparently it was a CFI with a student. Can't say for sure whether any of it's true or not, but sounds plausible. Also clearly someone has a beef with that controller :-)

 

"I am the pilot’s close friend and I thought it would be prudent to give some context on this video since it seems to be very much left out... First, the pilot who I will not name is an excellent, experienced pilot. I own an aircraft and he goes up with me often. We also work together at a local flight school. He’s a CFI/CFII/MEI and was on a training flight with a student when the event occurred. It’s important to know that the weather in Hawaii is very unique. You can get a weather briefing and it ends up completely different once you are in the air. Hawai’i has its famous towering cumulous clouds and that’s what he most likely encountered. Weather in Hawaii develops FAST, and often doesn’t show on ADSB or ATC radar because it doesn’t always have precipitation associated with it. All resources were actively in use on the flight by way of an iPad, stratus receiver & flight service / ATC. It’s also important to note how dark the pacific ocean is at night - you can’t see a thing - complete darkness. Like being in outer space. You can’t see anything and that includes clouds. Upon takeoff, again on an IFR flight plan at night, he encountered an extreme downdraft that violently thrust his left wing down over 50°. Immediately he countered with full right aileron in order to stabilize the aircraft. Even with full power and full opposite aileron he was not able to overcome the descending spiral that was created and declared his emergency per his training. He was not descending in a spiral by choice and was doing everything in his power to keep himself and his student alive. He didn’t have time to talk to ATC, yet somehow - being a professional pilot - he still managed to get a few calls in to try and fix the dire situation they faced. In terms of calling the visual approach. Hawai’i is very dark. He had just departed the airport and knew below 3000ft that he could attempt a visual approach. Knowing this and that the approach end of PHOG is notorious for incredibly violent winds, he didn’t want to jeopardize himself or his passengers life by crossing all the way over the island to intercept the approach in the event more of the same cloud buildups existed. He he had the beacon in sight and called it, but then again the clouds that you cannot see again appeared and blocked his view after being cleared for the visual. He was very clear about this with the controller. Also, the light rain and turbulence were what he experienced after the event, not during it. In terms of the attitude of the controller, I will not comment on it. I think it speaks for itself. I will say, though that I have personally filed numerous complaints about this controllers behavior in the past and I know many pilots in Hawai’i have a really hard time with him on a daily basis. Every time he comes on the radio you let out a sigh and say “oh great... here we go with this guy.” It’s not right. The majority of the controllers at HCF are excellent professionals and he does not represent them well. The irony is that I had the EXACT same thing happen to me the day before during day IFR conditions off the coast of Lanai with the same controller. I regained control after a brief course departure and asked for an immediate descent to get out of IMC because I knew it ended about 1000 feet below me where smoother air persisted. Because I was unable to control my altitude in severe turbulence I really had no choice in the matter. I asked for lower and he actually denied it even though I explained my situation to him very very clearly. Another controller, probably a supervisor, intervened and asked if I was declaring an emergency. I told her only if that other controller continues to act that way and doesn’t help me immediately I would have to. She immediately vectored me away from terrain and allowed me lower and boom problem solved about 20 seconds later. It’s shocking that I almost had to declare simply because the attitude of the controller prevented me from getting to a place that allowed me to fly safer. Unreal. I think it’s incredible that my friend was able to land both himself and his student safely during this event. I’m positive that in the same circumstances a less professional and less experienced pilot would have not lived through this."

[steingar]

The pilot in the video asked for vectors.  Pilot asks for vectors he or she should get vectors, not a lot of BS.  Were I the pilot of the video I'd have been tempted to take a crowbar to that controller.  Yeah, I'd wind up in jail, but at least that jackass wouldn't endanger any other pilots.  Sometimes you just have to take one for the team.

[carusoam]

What we re-learned...

1) Pilot has the ability to declare an emergency... for any reason... including “I’m wicked ascared”

2) the pilot gets handled with the priority status... to be sorted out later if needed...

3) The recording sounds like two people in over their heads... (not a great situation)

4) Neither one is looking any better for how they handled the situation...

5) We are unable to judge much about the situation as we are not in the plane... this is the beauty of being able to use the E-word...

6) Sitting right seat in a C172 in crummy downdrafts is an unpleasant, can’t climb fast enough to overcome downdrafts, experience.... (my experience in the dark training for the IR in C172)

7) Always fly a Mooney or better, when able...
 

If you have the choice would either of these two pros be on your short list to use?

If you are a pro, and know the other pro... are you going to press an issue like this? With the world listening in repeatedly across every discussion...

Pilot rule number one... do your best to not get in the media...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

If I may, I'm with @steingar on this - it is not the approach guy's place to second-guess a PIC, especially if an emergency was declared.

Once on the ground, by all means, work it out, give each other a number to call, tear each other's license up (kind of hard to do with those plastic FAA things, but there was enough adrenaline on both sides to make this work) but not before.

And "direct Maui VORTAC" is not vectors (0:43).  I actually thing the pilot did well - not only he didn't bend anything, but also didn't let the controller pressure him into something he didn't find acceptable.

I'm all out of reactions, hence the post, otherwise I'd just give a few likes and call it a night...

[DXB]

On 3/18/2020 at 1:22 PM, Ricky_231 said:

I found the below in the comments section of the video. Apparently it was a CFI with a student. Can't say for sure whether any of it's true or not, but sounds plausible. Also clearly someone has a beef with that controller :-)

 

"I am the pilot’s close friend and I thought it would be prudent to give some context on this video since it seems to be very much left out... First, the pilot who I will not name is an excellent, experienced pilot. I own an aircraft and he goes up with me often. We also work together at a local flight school. He’s a CFI/CFII/MEI and was on a training flight with a student when the event occurred. It’s important to know that the weather in Hawaii is very unique. You can get a weather briefing and it ends up completely different once you are in the air. Hawai’i has its famous towering cumulous clouds and that’s what he most likely encountered. Weather in Hawaii develops FAST, and often doesn’t show on ADSB or ATC radar because it doesn’t always have precipitation associated with it. All resources were actively in use on the flight by way of an iPad, stratus receiver & flight service / ATC. It’s also important to note how dark the pacific ocean is at night - you can’t see a thing - complete darkness. Like being in outer space. You can’t see anything and that includes clouds. Upon takeoff, again on an IFR flight plan at night, he encountered an extreme downdraft that violently thrust his left wing down over 50°. Immediately he countered with full right aileron in order to stabilize the aircraft. Even with full power and full opposite aileron he was not able to overcome the descending spiral that was created and declared his emergency per his training. He was not descending in a spiral by choice and was doing everything in his power to keep himself and his student alive. He didn’t have time to talk to ATC, yet somehow - being a professional pilot - he still managed to get a few calls in to try and fix the dire situation they faced. In terms of calling the visual approach. Hawai’i is very dark. He had just departed the airport and knew below 3000ft that he could attempt a visual approach. Knowing this and that the approach end of PHOG is notorious for incredibly violent winds, he didn’t want to jeopardize himself or his passengers life by crossing all the way over the island to intercept the approach in the event more of the same cloud buildups existed. He he had the beacon in sight and called it, but then again the clouds that you cannot see again appeared and blocked his view after being cleared for the visual. He was very clear about this with the controller. Also, the light rain and turbulence were what he experienced after the event, not during it. In terms of the attitude of the controller, I will not comment on it. I think it speaks for itself. I will say, though that I have personally filed numerous complaints about this controllers behavior in the past and I know many pilots in Hawai’i have a really hard time with him on a daily basis. Every time he comes on the radio you let out a sigh and say “oh great... here we go with this guy.” It’s not right. The majority of the controllers at HCF are excellent professionals and he does not represent them well. The irony is that I had the EXACT same thing happen to me the day before during day IFR conditions off the coast of Lanai with the same controller. I regained control after a brief course departure and asked for an immediate descent to get out of IMC because I knew it ended about 1000 feet below me where smoother air persisted. Because I was unable to control my altitude in severe turbulence I really had no choice in the matter. I asked for lower and he actually denied it even though I explained my situation to him very very clearly. Another controller, probably a supervisor, intervened and asked if I was declaring an emergency. I told her only if that other controller continues to act that way and doesn’t help me immediately I would have to. She immediately vectored me away from terrain and allowed me lower and boom problem solved about 20 seconds later. It’s shocking that I almost had to declare simply because the attitude of the controller prevented me from getting to a place that allowed me to fly safer. Unreal. I think it’s incredible that my friend was able to land both himself and his student safely during this event. I’m positive that in the same circumstances a less professional and less experienced pilot would have not lived through this."

Seems plausible to me. What I interpreted as calm in the pilot's voice suggesting he was trying to play the controller might very well have been the calm focus in a dreadful situation that comes with high proficiency.