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Odd ATC interaction. Real emergency?


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Here's a fun one to digest.  It's hard to know what happened on the pilot's end here.  Maybe he was rattled from having just lost control in IMC. Maybe he was just being an a-hole because he didn't get the routing short cut he wanted.  Regardless, the conroller certainly wasn't willing to treat him like an emergency aircraft after he declared :blink:

 

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I saw that earlier.   Hard to say what was up with the pilot, and I wouldn't second-guess his decisions without knowing more, but I'm not at all impressed with the controller.   That was really disappointing.

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No way to know for sure what happened in the plane, but easy to speculate possibilities include distressed or injured passengers or even pilot, as well as interior damage or navigation materials tossed into the back seat by turbulence.  

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Yeah, no doubt that controller handled it in the wrong way.  That was a ridiculous METAR to be declaring an emergency in (but could have been different away from airport) so if I was the controller and thought it was BS I would have laid it on real thick while being extremely helpful in the meantime.  I don't have any controller experience so excuse my inaccuracies, but I would have handled it in the following way as soon as the emergency was declared:

1. "Turn left heading XXX, airport is 5 miles"

2. State souls on board and fuel remaining

3. Will you require foam to be sprayed on the runway?

4. You are now 4 miles from the airport

5. Do you need me to turn up the intensity on the approach lights?

6. You are now 3 miles from the airport

7. Still good with no foam?

8. You are 2 miles from the airport

9. Emergency vehicles standing by

10. Cleared to land

I'm obviously being a little facetious, but my point is erring on the side being way too helpful (in a genuine way) will accomplish the same thing as questioning the pilot's decision to declare. 

Edited by Davidv
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Have to agree with @ArtVandelay.  For starters, sounded like the controller started out handling the emergency correctly, but grew frustrated when he wasn't getting good info back from the pilot to help manage the situation.  Pilot stated no mechanical failure, and only reported light turbulence.  Said he's "in a hard descent", yet his altitude on radar only deviates a maximum of 300 feet over 2 minutes.  Controller asks if he wants the ILS, yet pilot wants the visual, never maintains contact with the airport (but says he does), and "sees the beacon".  Controller gives the clearance for a visual, yet pilot says it doesn't help him and wants a vector...prompting the controller (justifiably-so) to question whether he really does have the airport in sight so the controller can give a proper direction.  When pilot admits he eventually DOESN'T have the airport, the controller rescinds the clearance and gives a vector...again, justifiably-so.

Admittedly, the controller could have been more patient, but both sides played a significant part, and we never hear what (or if) anything happened before or after the recording.  The controller could only do so much to manage the emergency given the limited and conflicting information the pilot gave.  Assuming nothing else happened in the cockpit (passenger issue, fuel emergency, etc.), it appears to be a training/proficiency issue.  I can't imagine a a pilot operating this C172 registered to an airtours company based in Honolulu would have anything less than a Commercial certificate with an Instrument rating, yet not be proficient in IMC.  Agree with others above that learning what happened during any post-landing conversations would have been beneficial to knowing the full story.

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1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah.... I'd put this on the pilot. The controller seems to give him everything he needed or wanted. If I was the pilot, I wouldn't want the FSDO listening to that tape. Remedial training for sure.

Make that two of us.  You could possibly excuse the pilot because he was unskilled, incompetent in the conditions, and panicky, but then why would you let someone with that skill set continue to fly?

If you declare an emergency you need to tell the controller what is going on and what you need. It is not up to the controller to read your panicky mind.

That controller gets a gold star for staying patient and giving the pilot what he needed. That pilot gets remedial training and at least a checkride, which I hope he does not pass, we don't need any "ambassadors" like that in the pilot community.

I don't get it.  Where does the mentality come from that we are at war with the controllers??

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Some cautious pilots may like to fly within 10km horizontal and 5000ft vertical distances from clouds/rain as personal choice or just lose their mind in light turbulences, why ATC should care apart from fitting the guy within the traffic flow? this guy seemed non-instrument capable and was just unable to navigate or stay out of clouds on his own? of course there are some smarty pilots who like to play the ATC system but I don't think it is a good idea to second-guess between ATC/pilots, can't ATC just fit him in traffic flow while maintaining separation? 

A friend of mine had his best experience of ATC in a big airport second guessing his intentions: they were not expecting him and his backcountry aircraft La Maule MX-7 Star Rocket to be IFR capable, so he was sent to 15nm final on ILS :lol:

Obviously, I don't like pilot RT tone neither but maybe he got one or two turbulence bumps and just want to get down :)

Edited by Ibra
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Let's assume for a minute that the pilot was not IFR rated or at least not comfortable with clouds, light rain, and light turbulence. IF that was indeed the case, when you have the airport in sight, don't lose sight of it. If you "see" the airport, then fly through that clear air directly to the airport. You've already declared an emergency so you can go where you like. None of that from the pilot made any sense.

And one other note. It's been my experience, that anyone uncomfortable with turbulence, will ALWAYS overstate it. What I would call "light turbulence" someone else, who's afraid of it, will call it "severe". So that fact that this guy kept saying, no it's Light Turbulence, makes me think there couldn't have been much turbulence at all.

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S#itshow across the board.  Flying single engine on a rainy night over open water is not without challenges.  More challenging for some than others.  I don't think this was a real emergency. I also don't think it's the controllers place to voice concerns over the radio.  A weather emergency is just as critical as a mechanical emergency if not more so.  Help the pilot get on the ground and then debrief.  On the other hand, had the pilot politely asked for help rather than just declaring an emergency then he'd have likely received the help.  Also, most folks in spirals are disoriented and don't know they're in spirals.  This whole thing came across like an unprofessional pissing match... Perhaps these two deserved one another.

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52 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Let's assume for a minute that the pilot was not IFR rated or at least not comfortable with clouds, light rain, and light turbulence. IF that was indeed the case, when you have the airport in sight, don't lose sight of it. If you "see" the airport, then fly through that clear air directly to the airport. You've already declared an emergency so you can go where you like. None of that from the pilot made any sense.

I think the pilot did well declaring an emergency and not debating why he declare it, but the thing I am puzzled with is why he wanted ATC vectors?
If he is not comfortable with weather patches around on an emergency visual approach, you just do what you have to do and explain it later 

Also, the fact that he asked direct before declaring emergency just adds to the confusion but honestly, he can always go to the tower after his landing and explain to ATC or fill papers why he is "asking for direct" or "want a red truck" instead of declaring an emergency?

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Steingar flies a Mooney, and He who is Steingar hopes he never ever sounds like the pilot in that video.  Steingar also hopes (probably forlornly) that the never gets controller like that on the radio, especially if the chips are down.  No matter what, the controller is in a booth, while the pilot could die in an airplane.  Isn't the controller's job to diagnose, investigate, or do anything else.  Just get the airplane on the ground in one piece.

I can't blame the pilot for being edgy, I hear there are some big rocks that part of the world. 

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FWIW, if I'm having issues sufficient to declare an emergency, I'm probably going to be already sufficiently task loaded that having to give a detailed explanation of what's going on is just going to add to my problems.   Certainly giving ATC some context is a productive thing to do, but the pilot did that and got criticism in return, on the air, while the emergency was in progress.   That's not helpful or productive.   Get the guy on the ground and sort out what was appropriate or not later, but let the priority be getting the airplane on the ground safely.   If it was an inappropriate emergency declaration, deal with it afterward.   If crap is really getting deep in the airplane, the radio calls and requests may not make a ton of sense depending on what's going on.   I thought ATC was the problem here as it unfolded.   It is entirely possible that it was an inappropriate emergency declaration, but I wouldn't assume that without more info about what was actually going on.

 

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1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

S#itshow across the board.  Flying single engine on a rainy night over open water is not without challenges.  More challenging for some than others.  I don't think this was a real emergency. I also don't think it's the controllers place to voice concerns over the radio.  A weather emergency is just as critical as a mechanical emergency if not more so.  Help the pilot get on the ground and then debrief.  On the other hand, had the pilot politely asked for help rather than just declaring an emergency then he'd have likely received the help.  Also, most folks in spirals are disoriented and don't know they're in spirals.  This whole thing came across like an unprofessional pissing match... Perhaps these two deserved one another.

I also had the impression of this interaction being the aviation equivalent of two monkeys hurling feces at each other.  Still, I have to cringe much more at the behavior on the ATC side. From a pilot's perspective, I'd want to see the guy declaring an emergency get the benefit of the doubt and all the deference and help that could reasonably be provided, even if he does sound like a fool or an a-hole. And I think the system is designed to work that way for good reason. No question that the pilot should be held accountable once on the ground.

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While the plane is in the air, I don't care *why* the guy had to declare and emergency.  Disoriented pilots crash and it doesn't really matter how or why he got that way.  Maybe he's just not up to the task - maybe his turn coordinator went out and he's overwhelmed.  Who knows, doesn't matter.  Once he says "emergency" and I need help getting down, ATC needs to act correctly and this controller did not.

After the plane is on the ground preferably right side up and on a runway, there is plenty of time to figure out if the pilot is competent to take off again.

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50 minutes ago, hypertech said:

While the plane is in the air, I don't care *why* the guy had to declare and emergency.  Disoriented pilots crash and it doesn't really matter how or why he got that way.  Maybe he's just not up to the task - maybe his turn coordinator went out and he's overwhelmed.  Who knows, doesn't matter.  Once he says "emergency" and I need help getting down, ATC needs to act correctly and this controller did not.

After the plane is on the ground preferably right side up and on a runway, there is plenty of time to figure out if the pilot is competent to take off again.

Totally agree.  Not ATCs role to decide the seriousness or an emergency. There priority should be helping the pilot.

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Just now, Shadrach said:

There priority should be helping the pilot.

It sure sounded to me like this is exactly what the controller was doing, but the pilot wasn't cooperating at all. The controller immediately started helping the pilot except the pilot wouldn't give any information other than "I've declared an emergency, now do what I tell you to do". 

When given direct to a fix, he could have said, navigation is out, can I just get vectors? Or is he struggling to control the airplane in IMC? Or is he on fire? Or is he not the pilot and the pilot is incapacitated, Or did he lose his 6 pack, or some of them? Is he lost? Is he out of gas? Is there oil covering the windshield? In all situations, the controller will help the guy get on the ground but all also require different responses to the emergency. 

I don't see how the controller does any better in this situation. He was trying to get information so he could provide better help to the pilot. The pilot wasn't cooperating.

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1 hour ago, hypertech said:

While the plane is in the air, I don't care *why* the guy had to declare and emergency.  Disoriented pilots crash and it doesn't really matter how or why he got that way.  Maybe he's just not up to the task - maybe his turn coordinator went out and he's overwhelmed.  Who knows, doesn't matter.  Once he says "emergency" and I need help getting down, ATC needs to act correctly and this controller did not.

After the plane is on the ground preferably right side up and on a runway, there is plenty of time to figure out if the pilot is competent to take off again.

(modifying my earlier reply)

I do agree with you that the controller could've deleted his questioning around the nature of the emergency at that exact time; however, aside from sounding a bit annoyed about the majority of the interaction, the controller issued proper instructions commensurate with the situations this pilot was allegedly describing, and did his job to attempt to get him help.

What do you think this controller could've done differently to illicit a better/different outcome?

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I think the questioning around the nature of the emergency makes perfect sense. As I was listening to the audio, that's about when I was wondering, "what type of emergency is this guy having?" His actions weren't making sense with his demands or requests.

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1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

I think the questioning around the nature of the emergency makes perfect sense. As I was listening to the audio, that's about when I was wondering, "what type of emergency is this guy having?" His actions weren't making sense with his demands or requests.

Yeah, the questioning was necessary, however I didn’t agree with the timing.  It probably could’ve waited, but on the other hand, it may have helped the controller diagnose quicker.

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I can imagine the situation and the controller calls the supervisor over because he's got a declared emergency. The supervisor asks what the nature of the emergency is. The controller doesn't know and is a bit confused by the actions of the pilot. The supervisor says to go ahead and ask him what the emergency is. 

Surely he could see the plane on radar. And he could see he wasn't losing altitude rapidly. And it just didn't make sense. I'd be thinking, the only thing I can think of is there is a cloud between him and the airport and he's not on an IFR flight plan. No problem, cleared for the ILS. But he didn't like that either. 

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2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

It sure sounded to me like this is exactly what the controller was doing, but the pilot wasn't cooperating at all. The controller immediately started helping the pilot except the pilot wouldn't give any information other than "I've declared an emergency, now do what I tell you to do". 

When given direct to a fix, he could have said, navigation is out, can I just get vectors? Or is he struggling to control the airplane in IMC? Or is he on fire? Or is he not the pilot and the pilot is incapacitated, Or did he lose his 6 pack, or some of them? Is he lost? Is he out of gas? Is there oil covering the windshield? In all situations, the controller will help the guy get on the ground but all also require different responses to the emergency. 

I don't see how the controller does any better in this situation. He was trying to get information so he could provide better help to the pilot. The pilot wasn't cooperating.

You did not hear the condescension in his voice or some of the statements that were made?  The 172 pilot made a poor showing but the controller matched him as things progressed.

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4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You did not hear the condescension in his voice or some of the statements that were made?  The 172 pilot made a poor showing but the controller matched him as things progressed.

No, I'll agree with you. But I think the controllers suspicions that there was no real emergency were quickly being confirmed and it showed in his voice.

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