M20M bravo tks speed brakes in icing condtions

[pkofman]

Im sure someone here will be able to answer this. What is the rule about using speed brakes in icing conditions   I have tks.

My associate says that using speedbrakes in an icing encounter is no allowed

Please advise if this is true.

 

also 

 

The tks supplement says NO AUTOPILOT in icing conditions! the autopilot can mask the control movements caused by icing

 

Peter

[donkaye]

8 minutes ago, pkofman said:

Im sure someone here will be able to answer this. What is the rule about using speed brakes in icing conditions   I have tks.

My associate says that using speedbrakes in an icing encounter is no allowed

Please advise if this is true.

 

also 

 

The tks supplement says NO AUTOPILOT in icing conditions! the autopilot can mask the control movements caused by icing

 

Peter

The speed brakes can freeze in the UP position if ice is encountered in even inadvertent situations.  Don't use them in any icing conditions.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, pkofman said:

 

The tks supplement says NO AUTOPILOT in icing conditions! the autopilot can mask the control movements caused by icing

 

Peter

I wonder if that is relevant for the GFC500 where you get the envelope protection and then the AP would be there as a helping hand to keep you in envelope?

E

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

The speed brakes can freeze in the UP position if ice is encountered in even inadvertent situations.  Don't use them in any icing conditions.

Yep. I once accidentally hit the yoke-mounted speed brake switch when in light rime icing. I immediately retracted them, but the left one didn't fully retract. Now I pull the speed brake breaker if there is any chance of ice. I didn't have TKS, but I would not expect it to get enough on the speed brakes to prevent this.

[Davidv]

10 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Yep. I once accidentally hit the yoke-mounted speed brake switch when in light rime icing. I immediately retracted them, but the left one didn't fully retract. Now I pull the speed brake breaker if there is any chance of ice. I didn't have TKS, but I would not expect it to get enough on the speed brakes to prevent this.

Going for that autopilot disconnect switch?  I haven't done it in a while but I've done that once by accident shortly after getting the plane, fortunately not in icing.

[alextstone]

37 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Yep. I once accidentally hit the yoke-mounted speed brake switch when in light rime icing. I immediately retracted them, but the left one didn't fully retract. Now I pull the speed brake breaker if there is any chance of ice. I didn't have TKS, but I would not expect it to get enough on the speed brakes to prevent this.

@PT20J, Thank you for the tip!  I had not thought of pulling the speedbrakes breaker but now I will make that part of my process when using TKS

[pkofman]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

The speed brakes can freeze in the UP position if ice is encountered in even inadvertent situations.  Don't use them in any icing conditions.

Thanks Don is it your standard practice to also disconnect the autopilot fully when descending down through clouds that have potential ice? @donkaye

Edited March 16, 2020 by pkofman
made mistake

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, pkofman said:

Thanks Don is it your standard practice to also disconnect the autopilot fully when descending down through clouds that have potential ice? @donkaye

25 years ago I didn't understand pre briefing as well as I do now.  I popped the speed brakes on descent through clouds and they froze in the up position.  It may have happened one time later.  I don't have TKS.  I just don't go now if there is a possibility of icing.  If you are living in a climate where icing is prevalent in the wintertime, then I would either get TKS or stay on the ground if you plan on flying in clouds.  Briefings are good enough now to know that in advance.  I'd much rather be prudent in the go/no go decision than dead.

If you were not prudent, then I would disconnect the AP on descent to give yourself the best chance to survive a possible icing encounter.  For TKS airplanes pulling the speed brake circuit breaker is a good idea.

[aviatoreb]

17 minutes ago, donkaye said:

25 years ago I didn't understand pre briefing as well as I do now.  I popped the speed brakes on descent through clouds and they froze in the up position.  It may have happened one time later.  I don't have TKS.  I just don't go now if there is a possibility of icing.  If you are living in a climate where icing is prevalent in the wintertime, then I would either get TKS or stay on the ground if you plan on flying in clouds.  Briefings are good enough now to know that in advance.  I'd much rather be prudent in the go/no go decision that dead.

If you were not prudent, then I would disconnect the AP on descent to give yourself the best chance to survive a possible icing encounter.  For TKS airplanes pulling the speed brake circuit breaker is a good idea.

That is good advice on both accounts.  1) here in icing country, there can be ice once in a while even if ice is not forecast and it does not seem likely but sometimes ice seems to just happen.  I have an inadvertent tks system and I use it just as I should - I don't launch if I think there will be ice but peace of mind having it there,. 2) its hard remember not to press that speed brake button out of habit - its a good idea that pulling the breaker as sop whenever running the tks and turning on the pitot heat which that part is my sop any time I fly into a winter cloud, premptively.

Edited March 16, 2020 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Hyett6420 said:

@G-SLOT for information for you.

Im not sure what you are saying there Andrew.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

Going for that autopilot disconnect switch?  I haven't done it in a while but I've done that once by accident shortly after getting the plane, fortunately not in icing.

Actually, I brushed against it when reaching around the left side of the yoke to adjust the CRS knob on the Aspen PFD. I’ve hit it accidentally without knowing it when doing stuff in the hangar, too. Scared the daylights out of me the first time it happened when I turned off the master and the speed brakes went CLUNK. 

[PT20J]

45 minutes ago, donkaye said:

25 years ago I didn't understand pre briefing as well as I do now.  I popped the speed brakes on descent through clouds and they froze in the up position.  It may have happened one time later.  I don't have TKS.  I just don't go now if there is a possibility of icing.  If you are living in a climate where icing is prevalent in the wintertime, then I would either get TKS or stay on the ground if you plan on flying in clouds.  Briefings are good enough now to know that in advance.  I'd much rather be prudent in the go/no go decision that dead.

If you were not prudent, then I would disconnect the AP on descent to give yourself the best chance to survive a possible icing encounter.  For TKS airplanes pulling the speed brake circuit breaker is a good idea.

Sound advice.

Richard Collins used to use his P210 for transportation a lot year ‘round all over the country. I recall reading an article where he said that he only used the FIKI capability to escape icing and that he wouldn’t launch on a flight with FIKI that he would have foregone without it. These little airplanes have a lot of utility, but they are not airliners. 
 

Skip

[pkofman]

So just to clear this up... i do have tks on my Bravo ... if I did not have tks  here in Canada/Toronto/great lakes area/ the plane would be a half year airplane at best...So we have perfect icing conditions from oct to april +5 to -10 c..and lots of "streamer /snow squall " activity that generate lots of fun things  in the lee of the great lakes. In order to fly here you really need to be prepared for ice and everything it might throw at you  There is no room im my book for taking off into the icing abyss. I wont do that.  So it is great to have tks to avoid the cold moist conditions in cloud.. Here is the the thing... I dont jump into thousands of feet of thick status type cloud ever. I will however  have no issue of going through a relatively thin layer or layers. From experience it does  not take much to pick up ice , so  a few thousand feet ( a few minutes ) is all you want max or you need to divert . Also  my personal mins are way above actual ifr minimums... I always want lots of time and space

So although i try to manage risk to my level of comfort you cannot control everything so a well planned descent may be completely changed by atc and therefore the speed brakes come in v handy when squeezed. But given that they can freeze up that would be on list any longer.

I did check my POH, and I spoke to TKS directly today to clear up what the books actually say about this  , Neither explicitly forbids speeedbrakes in ice that i could find. But someone might correct me 

But everyone is probably correct in that you dont want the SP's  to freeze up in the event you have to go - missed

 

Pete

 

[PaulM]

12 minutes ago, pkofman said:

did check my POH, and I spoke to TKS directly today to clear up what the books actually say about this  , Neither explicitly forbids speeedbrakes in ice that i could find. But someone might correct me 

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/AFM Supplements/SUPP0010C.pdf

It is in the AFM supplement for the speed brakes:

-WARNINGIf icing is encountered with the SpeedBrakes extended, retract the SpeedBrakes immediately.

and the TKS supplement:

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/SUPP0017H.pdf

Inadvertent deployment of SpeedBrakes

[on SpeedBrake equipped aircraft] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Immediately PUSH Speedbrake Switch ............................................. onControlWheeltoretractSpeedbrakes. OR
........................................ Immediately PULL Speedbrake Circuit Breaker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . on C/B Panel to retract Speedbrakes.

[aviatoreb]

16 hours ago, PT20J said:

Sound advice.

Richard Collins used to use his P210 for transportation a lot year ‘round all over the country. I recall reading an article where he said that he only used the FIKI capability to escape icing and that he wouldn’t launch on a flight with FIKI that he would have foregone without it. These little airplanes have a lot of utility, but they are not airliners. 
 

Skip

That pretty much agreed with what I was saying - but come to think of it Collins writings were influential to my thinking and practice.

Edited March 17, 2020 by aviatoreb

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, pkofman said:

Im sure someone here will be able to answer this. What is the rule about using speed brakes in icing conditions   I have tks.

My associate says that using speedbrakes in an icing encounter is no allowed

Please advise if this is true.

 

also 

 

The tks supplement says NO AUTOPILOT in icing conditions! the autopilot can mask the control movements caused by icing

 

Peter

The Speed Brake AFMS in the back of your POH says not to use them while descending in icing conditions.

 

[pkofman]

Obviously I was not doing a good job of reading today!!!!   More focused on the markets and covid.. This is exactly why I belong to this forum

Pete

Edited March 17, 2020 by pkofman

[PT20J]

5 hours ago, pkofman said:

So just to clear this up... i do have tks on my Bravo ... if I did not have tks  here in Canada/Toronto/great lakes area/ the plane would be a half year airplane at best...So we have perfect icing conditions from oct to april +5 to -10 c..and lots of "streamer /snow squall " activity that generate lots of fun things  in the lee of the great lakes. In order to fly here you really need to be prepared for ice and everything it might throw at you  There is no room im my book for taking off into the icing abyss. I wont do that.  So it is great to have tks to avoid the cold moist conditions in cloud.. Here is the the thing... I dont jump into thousands of feet of thick status type cloud ever. I will however  have no issue of going through a relatively thin layer or layers. From experience it does  not take much to pick up ice , so  a few thousand feet ( a few minutes ) is all you want max or you need to divert . Also  my personal mins are way above actual ifr minimums... I always want lots of time and space

So although i try to manage risk to my level of comfort you cannot control everything so a well planned descent may be completely changed by atc and therefore the speed brakes come in v handy when squeezed. But given that they can freeze up that would be on list any longer.

I did check my POH, and I spoke to TKS directly today to clear up what the books actually say about this  , Neither explicitly forbids speeedbrakes in ice that i could find. But someone might correct me 

But everyone is probably correct in that you dont want the SP's  to freeze up in the event you have to go - missed

 

Pete

 

All that seems very reasonable to me. The folks I worry about are those that think Mooney + turbo + TKS = go anywhere, anytime. They should really buy a Cirrus, because sooner or later, they’re gonna need the chute.

[pkofman]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

All that seems very reasonable to me. The folks I worry about are those that think Mooney + turbo + TKS = go anywhere, anytime. They should really buy a Cirrus, because sooner or later, they’re gonna need the chute.

OUCH! ......but probably true

[aviatoreb]

10 hours ago, PT20J said:

All that seems very reasonable to me. The folks I worry about are those that think Mooney + turbo + TKS = go anywhere, anytime. They should really buy a Cirrus, because sooner or later, they’re gonna need the chute.

RIght - exactly!   But I do figure turbo needs to be part of the package in my thinking, because the turbo is there to help get out of the stuff now if you end up in it nonetheless, with a more authoritative climb since sometimes the solution might be up rather than down.

One more piece of my thinking of not launching into known ice with or without fiki.  If there are conditions that you know have ice and or there are reports of ice, then there is likely ice there and if you re planning on it being mild enough that your little airplane can handle - it may be even worse than you thought and too much.  Severe.  If on the other hand indications are no ice, no forecast ice, no reports of ice and there turns out to be ice there - the unicorn "unintended ice" it seems in my mind more likely not to be severe ice - surely severe ice is hard to hide as not ice at all.

[G-SLOT]

5 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

it was a personal prod at Tim.  He has TKS and Brakes.

Thanks! Prod duly noted.

[kortopates]

It doesn't even need to be in icing conditions for use of speed brakes to become taboo. Flying high in turbo land you may have descended through some moisture or even be in it. If wet or any moisture, operating the speed brakes may lead to them sticking. Long ago I adopted the the procedure  to never use them in freezing conditions on a whim, I'll wait or go without till I descend into warmer air.  If I feel I really want them in below freeing conditions, my rule is only if the airport  of intended landing is above freezing, since I don't want to risk asymmetric deployment on landing. My older vacuum brakes may be more susceptible than current electric ones. 

[thinwing]

I’ve had a speed brake freeze up after aircraft sitting in rain ,than takeoff to high teen ,freezing alitude and one brake refusing to deploy while descending.The asymmetrical yaw produced a WTF moment till I realized what was happening

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

So wheels then, why don't they freeze up in icing conditions?  The principles surely apply.

Do you mean raising and lowering the gear?  Or do you mean the actual ability of the wheels to roll.

I would guess the parts are larger and the motors stronger to break through a moderate amount of ice for raising and lowering the wheels.  Vs the speed brakes where there are some measly little springs for pulling them back in.  As for rolling - once those wheels touch the ground at 55kts and 3000lbs, they will either roll or the wheels will skid.  I bet that's a lot of force.

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

I meant raising and lowering.  Always wondered, if they got water on them on take off, then they froze, whether they would come down again.

Right - well just guessing here - but I would guess as I said that the gear motors are relatively strong regarding breaking through a bit of ice - if you got too much ice to break through with the gear, then you probably had a major problem and you probably fell out of the sky due to icing long before you thought of lowering the gear.  Those little springs in the speed brakes are not super strong on the other hand.