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So I just read all of the fatal M20F crash reports


FloridaMan

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12 minutes ago, Releew said:

Really...Come on!  Don't think so!

You say....

"The Mooney's glide ratio is way better than the Skyhawks or Warriors, you don't need to be right on top of the runway on downwind to be able to glide in, in the event of an engine failure.  And engine failures on landing are far less common than stall/spin accidents." 

I have had an engine out in a M20C.  It was like going over a hump on a roller coaster.  It took instantaneous back pressure and trimming at the same time to get to a comfortable glide speed.  Got the engine to restart after about 60 seconds... which felt like an eternity.

Don't kid yourself....  They drop like a freaking ROCK .  Stay high....stay alive.

Rick 

 

What was the cause of your engine failure, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

yeah, I tend to agree with you- when the engine quits unexpectedly- the challenge is different depending on the phase of flight.  Takeoff, where you’re 5-7 degrees nose high, and at speeds close to Vy or Vx demand instant action to prevent stalling (or worse).  And that takes altitude.

Edited by M016576
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28 minutes ago, Releew said:

Really...Come on!  Don't think so!

You say....

"The Mooney's glide ratio is way better than the Skyhawks or Warriors, you don't need to be right on top of the runway on downwind to be able to glide in, in the event of an engine failure.  And engine failures on landing are far less common than stall/spin accidents." 

I have had an engine out in a M20C.  It was like going over a hump on a roller coaster.  It took instantaneous back pressure and trimming at the same time to get to a comfortable glide speed.  Got the engine to restart after about 60 seconds... which felt like an eternity.

Don't kid yourself....  They drop like a freaking ROCK .  Stay high....stay alive.

Rick 

Engine out in cruise is an immediate pitch down, enough to get my wife's attention when I was troubleshooting weird EGT and found a dead magneto . . . . Lesson learned:  mention things to passengers when there may be a problem. But IAS stayed the same, thanks to trim. I made no effort to pitch for Best Glide, just turned the key back where it had been and the engine purred again, leveling the plane out immediately.

In the pattern, VFR, I routinely pull throttle to idle on final, with no appreciable change in glide path. On my first ever BFR [when it was still called that], we were at out nearby Class D, 6500' long, and about midfield the CFI pulled throttle to idle and said  "your engine just died. What're you gonna do?" I continued my normal pattern, just over 1/2 mile out, but turned base a little soon; normal flap extension, gear down at normal point, same old speeds as always, and touched down at about the same point. I've since done this in other Flight Reviews with similar results, even crom ~2500 agl and several miles out [but landed straight in those times]. Had one CFII try to rattle me with a simulated-engine-out tomhis home field, 2440 x 30, in my first ever trip there. No problemo.

Then I took a Cherokee pilot and his young son to ride, cause he was airplane shoping. Coming in on final, over 1/4 mile out, over the trees that caused a displaced threshhold on our 3000' runway, I judged the field was made and pulled throttle to idle. His head snapped around, then back out the windshield. The landing was normal, even though it was not the preferred end due to unusual wind that day. He told me as we were taxiing in, "if I'd pulled power like that in my Cherokee, we'd have been in the trees. But when you did, nothing happened at all!"

So I have to agree, based on my own experience, that my C glides way, way better than Cessna and Piper models, and need not be over the runway to make a safe landing if the engine dies. My question becomes, what was going on with your Mooney to create such an atypical negative attitude and bad impression about handling characteristics? 

For your second point, "fly high" is good advice, and is much more practical in my Mooney than in the Cesnas that I trained in. Learning in  WV, I preferred to cruise over the Appalachians to Georgia and the Carolinas at 7500 msl or higher. I still like 8000 msl and up.

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I was ferrying the aircraft back that has sat outside for a while.  Although Every attempt was made to sump the tanks it was not enough.  I'll admit, I have never pulled the throttle back to null in a FLAT Position in the pattern, so what the aircraft does at a lower speed with complete loss of power is debatable at best.  Basic aerodynamics tells me that Mooney wing will not like complete loss of power unless the nose is already pointed down when it happens.....   Remain level on downwind, pull the power to Idle and see what happens.  Any Cessna, Piper will pitch down but no where near a Mooney Laminar Flow wing. 

Not looking for a debate....  Everyone has their own opinion.  Just had to say something when I read that comment.  Not an Instructor but I have a few hours.  Flying a wider than normal pattern to eliminate pulling back too hard in your pattern turns and maintaining a safe altitude and airspeed has worked well for me in the Mooney.  Just an opinion, but its an aircraft you do not want to force into a position in the pattern.

 

Take Care.....  Rick

 

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On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2011 at 5:54 AM, DaV8or said:

I agree with the above and to add, beware the alure of the personal airline. You can use your Mooney to travel, you just can't adhere to airline type schedules. You can shoot for departure and arrival times, but you will need hours and sometimes days of flexibility built in to your plans. Gotta-get-there-itis has killed a lot of pilots (families too) and probably accounts for many of the flight into terrain and loss of control in IMC you read about. Don't be seduced by fancy equipment in the cockpit either. It's been proven that even the latest glass cockpits like the G1000 with GPS, terrain, weather and autopilots don't prevent pilots from crashing the same way they did in their Grandpappy's day. Good equipment is helpful, but only with training and practice.

 

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11 hours ago, Releew said:

I was ferrying the aircraft back that has sat outside for a while.  Although Every attempt was made to sump the tanks it was not enough.  I'll admit, I have never pulled the throttle back to null in a FLAT Position in the pattern, so what the aircraft does at a lower speed with complete loss of power is debatable at best.  Basic aerodynamics tells me that Mooney wing will not like complete loss of power unless the nose is already pointed down when it happens.....   Remain level on downwind, pull the power to Idle and see what happens.  Any Cessna, Piper will pitch down but no where near a Mooney Laminar Flow wing. 

Not looking for a debate....  Everyone has their own opinion.  Just had to say something when I read that comment.  Not an Instructor but I have a few hours.  Flying a wider than normal pattern to eliminate pulling back too hard in your pattern turns and maintaining a safe altitude and airspeed has worked well for me in the Mooney.  Just an opinion, but its an aircraft you do not want to force into a position in the pattern.

 

Take Care.....  Rick

 

Mooneys are pretty docile at low power and the engine goes out.    At cruise power or take off power your reaction must be immediate and well trained.   Pushing down forcibly should be in the muscle memory.   Everyone should practice up high to be at takeoff off power and closing the throttle.   When I had the engine stutter at 900 feet I did not realize I had pushed over, but the other pilot with me said it was immediate.

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On 9/6/2011 at 4:00 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

If I'm going to be in an aircraft accident in a single-engine piston, a Mooney is the plane I want to be in.  Every now and then you see one that's been in a really bad accident, yet the frame surrounding the occupant(s) is entirely intact.

I thought a picture to post from last years Mooney Max, but I can’t find it so I will describe it:

Don had a Mooney in the hangar on which a hangar door had fallen.  It would have crushed the vast majority of all aluminum GA planes flat.  The passenger compartment cage held the hangar door off so well, that they were able to open the aircraft door.

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I actually fly fairly wide(ish) patterns.  I get yelled at by CFIs because they think I should fly tighter patterns in can the mill quits.  My thinking is lot more folks have died from stall spin accidents in the pattern (getting slow and cross controlled trying to slip from base to final) than loosing the engine in the pattern.

Edited by steingar
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