66' Mooney M20E Garmin Pilot W&B issues

[Tahir K]

Hey guys. I just purchased a 66' Mooney M20E and took delivery of it today. I was trying to set up my aircraft in Garmin pilot based on the most recent weight and balance information I have. For some reason it keeps giving me an error and I was wondering if anyone has experienced this before or could help me out. I've attached some pictures to show how I have it set up now. 

[ragedracer1977]

Your empty CG is wrong.  Max forward CG is 42”.  Max aft CG Is 49”.

You’re showing your empty CG to be 53.64”.  That can’t be right.

[ArtVandelay]

You should try to go through your paperwork and find all the weight and balance changes, make a spreadsheet to calculate the W&B, you may be shocked by number of mistakes you find.
You also might want to consider getting the plane weighed if you have any doubts.

[Ross Taylor]

We also have a '66 E and I had the same dilemma with our plane, when I bought it about a year ago.  The most recent W&B sheet figures were putting my CG far aft with just me up front and a small backpack.  After digging through the older W&B sheets, I found a math error made by the prop shop.  

If it helps for a gut check, our empty weight is 1750 pounds, empty CG is 46.84, and empty moment is 82,012.  These are based on my review (and correction) of prior W&B docs, not on a re-weigh.

And, most importantly, congratulations on the new E! 

[Tahir K]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

You should try to go through your paperwork and find all the weight and balance changes, make a spreadsheet to calculate the W&B, you may be shocked by number of mistakes you find.
You also might want to consider getting the plane weighed if you have any doubts.

This is the most recent document that I received. Does this help any in determining my mistake?

[Tahir K]

9 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Your empty CG is wrong.  Max forward CG is 42”.  Max aft CG Is 49”.

You’re showing your empty CG to be 53.64”.  That can’t be right.

This makes a lot more sense. I posted a picture of the most recent W&B document I received down below if that might help you understand where I'm going wrong?? 

[Tahir K]

4 hours ago, Ross Taylor said:

We also have a '66 E and I had the same dilemma with our plane, when I bought it about a year ago.  The most recent W&B sheet figures were putting my CG far aft with just me up front and a small backpack.  After digging through the older W&B sheets, I found a math error made by the prop shop.  

If it helps for a gut check, our empty weight is 1750 pounds, empty CG is 46.84, and empty moment is 82,012.  These are based on my review (and correction) of prior W&B docs, not on a re-weigh.

And, most importantly, congratulations on the new E! 

I appreciate you giving me ur W&B. I'm gonna dog through and see if I can't find other documents that correct this mistake. But I also posted a picture of what I have in terms of information. Thanks for the congrats! Can't wait to fly her around  

[David Lloyd]

Looking at the W&B pictured, it was in error before the changes were calculated.  Find a previous W&B that shows a CG in the 44 to 47 range and work forward from there to find the error.

[Tahir K]

12 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

Looking at the W&B pictured, it was in error before the changes were calculated.  Find a previous W&B that shows a CG in the 44 to 47 range and work forward from there to find the error.

Man y'all are geniuses. Just went through the logs and found out where the error was. Gonna work from there to see what was added and removed to calculate my actual cg. Thanks everyone for the guidance!

[David Lloyd]

Show us what you come up with.

[carusoam]

Don’t go away too fast...

What is with your MGToW not being equal to your max landing weight?

There is a note that says one is 56 pounds or so different than the other...

Does an M20E really have this restriction...?

This is typical of an M20R with 100gallons fuel tanks...

There is a lot of detail required to set up the app properly...

It really is a pain  data can’t be found...

In the end... the APP makes doing the calcs so easy... it is great to use for your own health...

You will probably find that you can save about 3 or four usual loading schedules that you use all the time...

That and knowing T/O distance and DA... good stuff to know for a new owner...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Tahir K]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Don’t go away too fast...

What is with your MGToW not being equal to your max landing weight?

There is a note that says one is 56 pounds or so different than the other...

Does an M20E really have this restriction...?

This is typical of an M20R with 100gallons fuel tanks...

There is a lot of detail required to set up the app properly...

It really is a pain  data can’t be found...

In the end... the APP makes doing the calcs so easy... it is great to use for your own health...

You will probably find that you can save about 3 or four usual loading schedules that you use all the time...

That and knowing T/O distance and DA... good stuff to know for a new owner...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

The 56 pounds is the fuel burn for the flight plan that I had entered in at the time that I was trying to configure the weight and balance. 

[Tahir K]

Alright guys. I appreciate all the help and the patience. I have attached a file with my weight and balance corrected and with an explanation of how I got the numbers I did. The "sheet" that I am referring to is the white "Aircraft Weight and Balance Worksheet" posted in this thread that has the ELT changes. Please let me know if I did this correct or if anyone has any questions. 

N6018Q Weight and Balance Corrected .pdf

[Tahir K]

12 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Show us what you come up with.

 

N6018Q Weight and Balance Corrected .docx

[Bob_Belville]

@Tahir K, congrats on the new '66E! 

I use Garmin Pilot for W&B. My '66E has a lot of mods including some that effectively move weight from the instrument panel and forward to the avionics bay in the back. My current empty weight is 1680# and the empty moment is 47.5". Yours should be in that neighborhood.  

[David Lloyd]

Looks good as it will get, I would be satisfied with that.  If you every get a significant radio upgrade, you might want to have the plane reweighed.

Stuff like this always makes me wonder why multiple owners flew the plane for 18 years without fixing the error.  

[tmo]

Well, I have a signed and stamped WnB sheet that lists the empty weight of my K at 1740 lbs, giving me a 1160 lbs useful load.  I may or may not do a reweigh, but that piece of paper is likely staying in the plane's file for ever.

[David Lloyd]

A signed piece of paper might save your arse.  Knowing what it should be might save your life.

[Tahir K]

4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

@Tahir K, congrats on the new '66E! 

I use Garmin Pilot for W&B. My '66E has a lot of mods including some that effectively move weight from the instrument panel and forward to the avionics bay in the back. My current empty weight is 1680# and the empty moment is 47.5". Yours should be in that neighborhood.  

Thanks Bob! Any M20E do's and don'ts I should be aware of? First Mooney and first airplane! 

[Tahir K]

4 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Looks good as it will get, I would be satisfied with that.  If you every get a significant radio upgrade, you might want to have the plane reweighed.

Stuff like this always makes me wonder why multiple owners flew the plane for 18 years without fixing the error.  

Yea I'm gonna say this is as good as it's gonna get too and I'm pretty satisfied with where it's at. Thanks!

[Bob_Belville]

16 hours ago, Tahir K said:

Thanks Bob! Any M20E do's and don'ts I should be aware of? First Mooney and first airplane! 

Good morning Tahir, yeah we have lots of dos and don'ts. My first Mooney experience was 50+ years and 3000+ hours ago. Most of those years and hours have been in '66Es. 

Where are you based? Can you find your profile and fill out some info and stay plugged in to MooneySpace. You'll learn something new every time you visit.

The owner/operator is responsible for the W&B but the IA that last annualed the plane should have gone through the logs and the W&B. (It takes an A&P to sign off on any changes to the W&B and that includes correcting old errors. 

Most of us would re-weight our plane only as a last resort. Most planes gain some weight over the years and weighing the plane and changing the W&B to reflect dirt, paint, etc. will cost useful load. (Our E models have a 2575# max weight weight. But we have the same wing, the same gear, and essentially the same engine as the F and J models whose max is 2740#.)

  

[ArtVandelay]

Most of us would re-weight our plane only as a last resort. Most planes gain some weight over the years and weighing the plane and changing the W&B to reflect dirt, paint, etc. will cost useful load. (Our E models have a 2575# max weight weight. But we have the same wing, the same gear, and essentially the same engine as the F and J models whose max is 2740#.)
  

All true, in addition there is error in the scales used in the weighing process. A 1% error will result in a 17lb difference. And maybe the scales were once more accurate, but they have to be recalibrated. Then it has to be done correctly, which in my experience never is.
Also the J and F models don’t share the same frame, and maybe the weight limitation is less about weight and more about balance. The more weight allowed, the easier it is to get out of balanced.

[gsxrpilot]

At a friendly shop, we put the 252 up on the scales. If the W&B came out worse than the paper in the log book, this was just practice and testing the scales, nothing logged. If it came out better than the log book, I'd have a new and official W&B. 

It was surprisingly better.

 

[kortopates]

On 3/12/2020 at 5:07 AM, David Lloyd said:

Stuff like this always makes me wonder why multiple owners flew the plane for 18 years without fixing the error.  

Yep - Absolutely amazing prior pilots hadn't done an actual weight and balance in all those years! Hope it was only flown solo all that time!

 

On 3/12/2020 at 9:20 AM, Tahir K said:

Yea I'm gonna say this is as good as it's gonna get too and I'm pretty satisfied with where it's at. Thanks!

Be sure to work with your mechanic to get a revised official W&B into your aircraft records so you're legal once again as noted by a few above. Unfortunately that happens all too often. But coming up with an empty weight that is out of limits and then isn't noticed for a couple decades has got to set the bar for bonehead errors! At least it was easily resolved.

Congrats and hope you don't find anymore issues with your new E! 

[Tahir K]

Just now, kortopates said:

Yep - Absolutely amazing prior pilots hadn't done an actual weight and balance in all those years! Hope it was only flown solo all that time!

 

Be sure to work with your mechanic to get a revised official W&B into your aircraft records so you're legal once again as noted by a few above. Unfortunately that happens all too often. But coming up with an empty weight that is out of limits and then isn't noticed for a couple decades has got to set the bar for bonehead errors! At least it was easily resolved.

Congrats and hope you don't find anymore issues with your new E! 

I plan on doing some avionics work soon (fingers crossed). I will most likely have it reweighed at the time. I'm just surprised no owner or Mechanic in any annual since 2002 stopped to check the math. I'm no rocket scientist but all you have to do is divide the moment by the weight to get the C. G. I'm glad I'm digging through all this material to get familiar with my airplane. Who knows what else I will find