M20C/E Alternative

[KLRDMD]

To all of those people looking for inexpensive "C" and "E" model Mooneys and unable to find anything decent under $50k (or more):

Consider an alternative. The vintage Beech products are fairly similar to the vintage Mooneys. Early Bonanzas had engines in the 200 +/- 25HP range with similar speeds and fuel burns to the Mooneys. What would an M20E be listed at with 2800TT, 1400 SMOH with Garmin 430, S-Tec 50 autopilot with GPSS, nice audio panel and modern transponder, alternator conversion and Alpha shoulder harnesses? At least twice what this Bonanza is, I would guess.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=179250

Edited March 9, 2020 by KLRDMD

[gsxrpilot]

26 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

At least twice what this Bonanza is, I would. guess.

At least! I'd say an E similarly equipped, would fetch $70K pretty quickly.

[mizer2167]

Needs an overhaul soon, as I think TBO is 1500 on that engine. Overhauls are spendy, moreso than the Lycoming. My understanding is E-185-8 parts and knowledge are getting sort of hard to come by in general. Beech electric prop parts are hard to come by also from my research. Then you have the ruddervators. Hope there's a replacement available some time in the future, if not, you really need to make them last.

E's don't have some of these issues. Parts are more common; 1400 on the Lycoming isn't as close to TBO and parts are readily available for the IO-360.

So, longevity is the consideration; part of why I think you see as much difference as you do. So much fun to fly those early '35 models though. I only have a few hours in them but they were great hours.

[hammdo]

Annuals can get very expensive with the Beech with the recurring ADs.  After I researched Beech, I went with the Mooney.

Something to think about too...

-Don

[Pasturepilot]

You don’t have to be an expert to keep The engine in any Mooney going. E-series continental ownership, on the other hand, ain’t for lightweights. Yes, you can keep one going, but it’s a low TBO and you’ll eventually find some part that’s common on any more modern engine, will wind up grounding your airplane for a long while as you scour the globe for parts. 
 

An older beech swapped to an O-470 is better in this regard, but it’s gonna bring a higher price. 

[Niko182]

Pretty sure you can just stick a 550 on it when time comes to overhaul.

[Tcraft938]

Before I bought the Mooney I actually looked at vintage V tail Bonanzas.  TBO is much sooner than an O-360, two more cylinders to take care of, insurance was more and my A&P told me parts cost more and for the flying I do, maintenance and annual costs would likely be more.  The feeling of more room was nice, but I didn't like the throw over yoke or the big bar if dual and how it really limited visibility of instruments on the panel.  Was not a fan of the swivel nose wheel either.  Mooney I like the JBar gear operation and I can fly the same speed in the C at 9gph vs closer to 12 in the Bonanza.  The early Bonanzas also have pretty expensive prop AD's if electric or converted to hydraulic and the number of shops doing the work is diminishing.  Al in all it's about what you're after.  We started looking at the Beechcraft Sierra because my wife loved the room in it.  Thus my surprise when we looked at the Mooney and she liked it and the numbers.  Everyone's mileage will vary.  Do what you like and be happy with it.  :-)

 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, mizer2167 said:

Needs an overhaul soon, as I think TBO is 1500 on that engine. Overhauls are spendy, moreso than the Lycoming. My understanding is E-185-8 parts and knowledge are getting sort of hard to come by in general. Beech electric prop parts are hard to come by also from my research. Then you have the ruddervators. Hope there's a replacement available some time in the future, if not, you really need to make them last.

The TBO on that engine is 1,500 hours, yes. But I hope no one flying part 91 today overhauls on engine time alone.  My engine has just under 2100 SMOH on a 1700 TBO but with great compressions, great oil analysis and little oil use I have no plans to overhaul it in the foreseeable future. The E-185 is essentially an O470. Jewell charges $4k more to overhaul an O470. versus an IO360. The ruddervator is a non-issue for this airplane (it truly isn't an issue for any V tail,  they are available). This airplane originally had fabric control surfaces and can easily have them again. Parts for the Beech electric prop are also readily available.

Worst case you overhaul this engine and still have less money in it than a comparable Mooney.

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, hammdo said:

Annuals can get very expensive with the Beech with the recurring ADs.  After I researched Beech, I went with the Mooney. Something to think about too...

Care to provide specifics? As someone that has owned four Mooneys and three Beech products I disagree.

[KLRDMD]

49 minutes ago, Tcraft938 said:

Before I bought the Mooney I actually looked at vintage V tail Bonanzas.  TBO is much sooner than an O-360, two more cylinders to take care of, insurance was more and my A&P told me parts cost more and for the flying I do, maintenance and annual costs would likely be more.  The feeling of more room was nice, but I didn't like the throw over yoke or the big bar if dual and how it really limited visibility of instruments on the panel.  Was not a fan of the swivel nose wheel either.  Mooney I like the JBar gear operation and I can fly the same speed in the C at 9gph vs closer to 12 in the Bonanza.  The early Bonanzas also have pretty expensive prop AD's if electric or converted to hydraulic and the number of shops doing the work is diminishing.  Al in all it's about what you're after.  We started looking at the Beechcraft Sierra because my wife loved the room in it.  Thus my surprise when we looked at the Mooney and she liked it and the numbers.  Everyone's mileage will vary.  Do what you like and be happy with it.  :-)

Using comparable airplanes, I fail to see how a $26k Bonanza's insurance would be more than a $50k Mooney. Fair enough if you don't like the yoke. Non-pilot passengers LOVE not having a yoke in front of them and like the fold down rudder pedals on the right side too. Getting in and out for both passengers and pilot is easier without a right side yoke in the way too.

At 12.5GPH in my Bonanza I get 170 KTAS. I'm sorry, but your C model isn't doing 170 KTAS in level flight at any fuel flow, much less 9GPH. My C was one of the faster ones I thought and the best I could get was 147 KTAS under perfect conditions.

[Pasturepilot]

If you’re looking for a cheaper bonanza, the Debonair ain’t a bad way to go. 
 

whats the going rate on a set of bearings to overhaul an E-series continental? I worked at an engine shop before I started flying for a living. We returned an E-225 to one owner because there was one part we couldn’t source. Can’t remember what it was. Want to say it was main bearings or rod bearings for a crank that had been ground. 
 

I did a prepurchase on a rearwin a couple years back, and the owner told me that main bearings were unobtainable. Some guys were modifying some automotive bearings to fit properly. That was a Franklin engine. Different mill, but similar scenario- enthusiast owners are scouring the planet to keep them running while certain parts are made of unobtainum. 
 

I’d much rather fly a four cylinder lycoming that every FBO has a mechanic who can care for it. 

[steingar]

The words cheap and Bonanza just don't go together.  One way or another you pay.  I love everything about the V tails expect the price tag.  I see old Mooneys going in the 30's all the time.  The guys having trouble are the ones who expect to get a cherry Mooney with an IFR GPS of recent vintage in the panel for 30K.  

[madjano]

My buddy has a "C" with the 185. Great plane, but always wondered how hard it would be to manually pump that fuel pump and fly the plane should the mechanical pump fail.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, steingar said:

The words cheap and Bonanza just don't go together.  One way or another you pay.  I love everything about the V tails expect the price tag.  I see old Mooneys going in the 30's all the time.  The guys having trouble are the ones who expect to get a cherry Mooney with an IFR GPS of recent vintage in the panel for 30K.  

Friends don't let friends buy $30K Mooneys. The Bo in question has an Stec autopilot and a WAAS GPS. Any Mooney with both of those, will start at $50K

[hammdo]

47 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Care to provide specifics? As someone that has owned four Mooneys and three Beech products I disagree.

Research from the American Bonanza Society. I’m a member there and the planes I looked into were discussed. Several folks stated to expect $5k annuals depending on models. The 185 was harder and more expensive to get parts for - they also suggested to look for the ‘upgrade/installed’ 470. There was a lot of info there. I still get the mag to keep up with them...

-Don

 

[hammdo]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Friends don't let friends buy $30K Mooneys. The Bo in question has an Stec autopilot and a WAAS GPS. Any Mooney with both of those, will start at $50K

Mine was $27k when I bought it in December. With the updated avionics, it’s now $37k with a WASS GPS ;o)

-Don

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Research from the American Bonanza Society. I’m a member there and the planes I looked into were discussed. Several folks stated to expect $5k annuals depending on models.

More generalities with no facts.

Facts: The annual was $2,835 last year for my S35 Bonanza. The annual on my 231 in 2018 was $2,263. The annual for my Baron in 2018 was $4,202.

[hammdo]

Just going by what the folks there told me. Folks stated their annuals for me. Note I did say depending on model. Your $4k+ annual is pretty close..

-Don

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, hammdo said:

Just going by what the folks there told me. Folks stated their annuals for me. Note I did say depending on model. Your $4k+ annual is pretty close..

My $4k annual was for my Baron, not a Bonanza.

[hammdo]

Gotcha but I noted Beech in general depending on model...

-Don

 

Annuals can get very expensive with the Beech with the recurring ADs.  After I researched Beech, I went with the Mooney.

Something to think about too...

[gsxrpilot]

My experience has shown me that the cost of the annual has much more to do with the overall condition of the airplane, the previous annual/s, and the shop doing the work, rather than the make or model.

[hammdo]

Agree, in my case, the last 3 annuals for the B I purchased have been $1200 (2018), $1200 (2019) and $1200 (so far for 2020) - not including my avionics upgrades I wanted.

-Don

[KLRDMD]

My shop rate is $105/hour. If someone else has a shop rate of $75 that would make for a significant difference in annual expense.  Likewise if you drop off the keys and pick it up, like I do, versus someone doing owner assisted annuals, the amount will be different.

[hammdo]

Very true...

Shop labor rate makes a big difference and very well skews the cost of annuals...

-Don

[carusoam]

When I bought my M20C...

I compared to a similarly priced V-tail...

The Mooney was a 65C, V-tail was 1955 version...

Both were CB specials...perfect for a CB pilot wannabe...

The rumors were the same back then too... parts are expensive and hard to find, annuals cost 2X...

And there was no MS or BT to go ask questions...

That was back in Y2K...

Best regards,

-a-