M20K 231 Looking to Purchase

[Kramali]

Hi! I'm new to the Board and need some guidance.  I'm a former Naval Aviator and have owned a number of aircraft, including a M20C and an Ovation2 (new from factory).  I am looking at buying a 231.  The airplane is within the budget, but I know well that many times that's just the beginning.  I need some guidance.  The plane is listed as TTAF 2187 (great) but the Engine is 130 SMOH Lower, 220 smoh Top and TSIO360GBI.  No speed brakes.  Comments?

130 SMOH LOWER
220 SMOH TOP
TSIO360GB1
2003

[jrwilson]

The GB engine is considered to be hotter running than the LB engine.  

[ArtVandelay]

Why the difference in overhauled times? Was there a prop strike?

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Kramali.

The mixed numbers on the top and bottom OH are unusual... I’m sure there is an interesting story to go with that...

when looking at Ks there are so many engine options including MP controllers and inter coolers...

All are good, some are just more desirable than others...

All benefit by having a really good engine monitor...

Best regards,

-a-

[rainman]

All American Aircraft in Texas seem to have a good handle on the market, and likely will be able to help sort through the planes. 

[whiskytango]

Hi Kramali

I previously owned a 231 GB, and currently own a 231 LB with Merlyn UDC and intercooler.  Engine management with the LB/Merlyn/Intercooler is noticeably easier.  Regarding speed brakes, the absence is not a deal breaker, but they can make life easier if you do a lot of IFR into airports in Class B and C airspace. 

[LANCECASPER]

21 hours ago, Kramali said:

Hi! I'm new to the Board and need some guidance.  I'm a former Naval Aviator and have owned a number of aircraft, including a M20C and an Ovation2 (new from factory).  I am looking at buying a 231.  The airplane is within the budget, but I know well that many times that's just the beginning.  I need some guidance.  The plane is listed as TTAF 2187 (great) but the Engine is 130 SMOH Lower, 220 smoh Top and TSIO360GBI.  No speed brakes.  Comments?

130 SMOH LOWER
220 SMOH TOP
TSIO360GB1
2003

I see N312D in your profile - that must be the Ovation 2 that you bought new. I owned it a few years back for a year before going to a Turbo Mooney.

[Oldguy]

Several Mooney mechanics I know identify the TSIO-360-GB as "Gonna Break". Not being a K model owner, I have no experience with those engines, but I am sure there are plenty on the forum who do.

If the 2003 is the date of the latest engine work, and there are only 130 hours since it was done, I would be concerned about the condition of the engine regardless of type.

It seems the 231's are the best value in the Mooney lineup at this time, so you should be able to find one with what you want.

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah, everything @Oldguy said. I obviously don't know anything about this particular airplane, but there are things in the story that are concerning. 

• It's a bit unusual that one of the GB engines gets overhauled without being upgrade to an LB engine. 
• The engine work times are curious as well. A TOP is done and then 90 hours later the Bottom is done?
• Now the airplane is for sale so soon after major engine work.

All of these could be indicative of an owner who isn't spending to properly maintain the airplane. That would make me wonder what else the owner isn't spending on, or what other maintenance is being deferred.

Regardless, I would expect the asking price on an 231 with a GB engine to be... attractive.

*PP only, not a Mooney broker or Jimmy Garrison

[ZuluZulu]

Just want to echo that calling @jgarrison might be very helpful.  830-261-4147

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, ZuluZulu said:

Just want to echo that calling @jgarrison might be very helpful.  830-261-4147

And I believe Jimmy has said several times on here, a text is usually more likely to get answered than a voicemail or email. FWIW.

[KLRDMD]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:54 AM, Kramali said:

130 SMOH LOWER
220 SMOH TOP
TSIO360GB1
2003

I wouldn't buy a -GB engine but others feel differently.

[exM20K]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

• It's a bit unusual that one of the GB engines gets overhauled without being upgrade to an LB engine. 
• The engine work times are curious as well. A TOP is done and then 90 hours later the Bottom is done?
• Now the airplane is for sale so soon after major engine work.

Paul's 100% right IMHO.  I had a largely problem-free 1500+ hours with a Merlyn-equipped LB.  Lots of good planes out there, and buying from a reputable dealer/broker whose business depends on reputation well past this sale is wise.

[Phil EF]

N231JC just popped up on Controller.  Very well equipped, but needs some interior work. 

My experience with the GB is it performs well but requires careful, conservative handling. 

[dan nephin]

Might want to check out flightsimple aviation in Calgary Ab. Micheal Wilton. Has a nice 231 for sale. 

[kortopates]

Personally I moved on just seeing the GB and clever marketing by 130 SMOH LOWER 220 SMOH TOP TSIO360GB1

Recognize the misuse of SMOH - there is no such thing as SMOH Lower or top. Neither reset the clock for the engines TSMOH. It would be more correct and honest to say Lower was IRAN'd 130 hrs ago and whatever cylinder work was done 220 hrs ago - but engine time since last overhaul hasn't changed by either of these repairs separately or together. A major overhaul has a legal definition. The real point though is that the owner  didn't want to spend the $ for proper OH and you probably have no idea how thorough the repairs where done but someone is trying to tell you the work is equivalent to a Major overhaul - but its not!  

[ArtVandelay]

How much above a normal overhaul price would it cost to upgrade old GB engine to MB?

[carusoam]

@Kramali, there are a bunch of answers to your questions...

Many will require follow-up with the seller...

Do you get to ask the seller or owner direct questions about this bird?

Best regards,

-a-

[Frank B.]

I ran a GB 1700 hours with one cylinder change. It’s all about proper engine management. Obviously a LB is a “Little Better”  thus the LB and the MB is “Much Better”. I don’t agree that the GB is “G*$Awful Bad” though as a lot of people say. If you are experienced with engine management “ good engine monitor” and are willing to pay close attention to your temperatures .. especially during climb out and decent ... a GB engine can afford you many hours of reliable, dependable service. You can also find great value in a plane with a GB engine.

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Personally I moved on just seeing the GB and clever marketing by 130 SMOH LOWER 220 SMOH TOP TSIO360GB1

Recognize the misuse of SMOH - there is no such thing as SMOH Lower or top. Neither reset the clock for the engines TSMOH. It would be more correct and honest to say Lower was IRAN'd 130 hrs ago and whatever cylinder work was done 220 hrs ago - but engine time since last overhaul hasn't changed by either of these repairs separately or together. A major overhaul has a legal definition. The real point though is that the owner  didn't want to spend the $ for proper OH and you probably have no idea how thorough the repairs where done but someone is trying to tell you the work is equivalent to a Major overhaul - but its not!  

I haven’t looked at this in over a decade, but my recollection is that CMI wouldn’t sell a GB OH Kit...  only LB.

 

-dan

[Kramali]

22 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I see N312D in your profile - that must be the Ovation 2 that you bought new. I owned it a few years back for a year before going to a Turbo Mooney.

That was an incredible airplane.  I dreamed for many years of the day I would go to Mooney and pick up my new airplane.  They were so desperate to sell it that they stripped and repainted it to my spec and added A/C.  Three days after pickup the factory shut its doors and filed for Chapter 11 negating my warranty completely.  I had to have the tanks resealed and a few other odds and ends, however, the guys at the factory went to the shelves and sent me the parts I needed.  I traded her for a Meridian, however, in many ways 312D was the better aircraft.

[LANCECASPER]

39 minutes ago, Kramali said:

That was an incredible airplane.  I dreamed for many years of the day I would go to Mooney and pick up my new airplane.  They were so desperate to sell it that they stripped and repainted it to my spec and added A/C.  Three days after pickup the factory shut its doors and filed for Chapter 11 negating my warranty completely.  I had to have the tanks resealed and a few other odds and ends, however, the guys at the factory went to the shelves and sent me the parts I needed.  I traded her for a Meridian, however, in many ways 312D was the better aircraft.

Here’s what the panel eventually looked like in N312D

 

[MIm20c]

People love to critique FS aircraft on this site. Isn’t this aircraft like an hour from where you live?  Hop in the car and go see it in person and carefully go through the logs. See what was done overhaul wise and fill in the missing pieces. It’s rare to find an aircraft that peaks your interest so close to home, it’ll be a great learning experience. 

[Kramali]

4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

People love to critique FS aircraft on this site. Isn’t this aircraft like an hour from where you live?  Hop in the car and go see it in person and carefully go through the logs. See what was done overhaul wise and fill in the missing pieces. It’s rare to find an aircraft that peaks your interest so close to home, it’ll be a great learning experience. 

That's solid advice.  I'm gonna do it.  It's the only way to answer the questions and raise others.  

[kortopates]

22 hours ago, exM20K said:

I haven’t looked at this in over a decade, but my recollection is that CMI wouldn’t sell a GB OH Kit...  only LB.

 

-dan

No doubt since TCM has essentially pulled support on this engine. But they have dropped a vast many Kits simply because the demand is not there on older engines, the individual part numbers are generally always available. TCM will supply the part no list on any kit they no longer sell (in my experience). That's not to say there may well be some parts unique to the GB that may be hard to source - I don't have any direct experience with the GB. But with ability to fall back to older part numbers and PMA'd Superior parts I would assume a field major overhaul is still very possible. But I would expect an engine shop would insist on doing the LB conversion just as TCM would.

But in my opinion the only "overhaul" that counts is a "Major Overhaul" since this is the only overhaul recognized by the FAA legally. Anything else is a repair. 

 

On 3/5/2020 at 3:44 PM, ArtVandelay said:

How much above a normal overhaul price would it cost to upgrade old GB engine to MB?

It totally depends on the specific circumstances and context of when its done relative to other work and how the parts are sourced. Suffice to say since it requires some pretty significant updates including a new induction system that its probably only economical when done by a large engine rebuilder that won't have to source all new parts. We've seen a few quotes on the complete overhaul done that way here in MS and they weren't that bad at all. One in the last year I recall. So as far as "above a normal overhaul price" probably just a few K but no one to my knowledge posted a delta quote since the shops doing it won't quote a MOH without the conversion. (how's that for a wishy washy answer!)