CW85 Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 I have beenconsidering an upgrade to something a little bigger and a little faster. A friend and local pilot just offered me his 1959 M20A. I had never considered a Mooney and no very little about them. The wooden wing concerns me as far as maintenance and there is not a lotof information that I have been able to find. The plane looks good. The books seem in order and the price seems reasonable. A bonus is that the plane comes with the hanger. I would appreciate any and all information anyone would like to share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 When I was shopping, specifically for Mooneys, I briefly considered M20As. Others will likely disagree, but I was just too uncomfortable with finding a knowledgeable mechanic that I could trust for a wood wing. Yes, aluminum corrodes and wood rots, so it's not like aluminum is 'better.' But, it's just not common any more and that spar is over 60 years old and has seen who knows what conditions over that time span. The prices just weren't that much lower to justify the risk. Good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybrd Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 I used to own m20a Mooney and I really liked it. It was easy to fly and much faster than other planes I’ve owned. Mine had a metal tail which I think all have been modified due to a AD requiring it. The wood wing needs to be in good condition and hopefully hangered. Mine was rebuilt shortly before I bought it. You would benefit getting the plane mechanically checked out before you buy it. I had mine painted at Tehachapi, Ca airport, it looked like a new Mooney. Enjoy your future Mooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CW85 Posted March 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 I would most definitely get a pre buy inspection before purchasing. The plane has been hangered since he purchased it in the early 90s. The hangar is also part of the deal. I am aware of the whole wood vs aluminum debate and it does factor into my consideration. Os there anything in particular I should be looking for with these aircraft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 Welcome aboard, CW. Look for other owners... There are probably more than a dozen M20A owners active on the board... Look to maintain a relationship with the existing owner... So many questions he can answer towards... ‘how did you’ and ‘who did you...’ There were not that many years of wood wing Mooneys ever built... Some pictures of their clean wings are around here somewhere... Don’t be surprised when somebody says their plane is better because.... There have been so many improvements over the years... it is quite possible they aren’t far off... the improvements in the first decade were many... with a peak about 1965... then they were minor after that... One thing to enjoy... reading the logs of the M20A... there will be a log entry where the tail was replaced by an aluminum tail... Part of the history... read up and enjoy... For comparison... look at the speed your new 2U plane will fly... compare to current production and the price they go for... +1 for PPI. Find out everything before you own it... true of used planes in general... not M20A specific... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 I’d have it inspected by someone who specializes in vintage wood and fabric airplanes. Our vintage aircraft museum received a donation of a beautiful Mite that I was hankering to test fly until the annual inspection revealed that bugs had gotten into the spar. This airplane is more of an antique/vintage plane than just an old Mooney. The FAA shows only 71 with current US registration. If you are buying it as a rare vintage airplane, and it is in good or restorable shape, then go for it. If you are buying it because it seems cheap, you may be disappointed down the road. Skip 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 If the wing is in good condition then I would go for it. In some ways I think it's less maintenance than a metal wing. No worries about leaking wet tanks seeping fuel. Wood wings have aluminum tanks that are easy to repair if needed. Things to look for are the flap brackets. Grab the flap brackets and pull on them back and forth. If no movement then it's a good sign. Step back and forth on the wing walk area. If the wing walk is firm with no play then its's golden. If there is some play then it's not a deal breaker but might need some wood work attention. Take a small mallet and lightly tap the plywood against the ribs especially against the flap area in the wings aft sections. If you detect any play or lifting between the wing plywood and ribs then I would probably pass. When the plywood starts to delaminate from the wood substructure it's not difficult to repair but it will require attention. There is a annual AD that requires removing the rear fuel tank under the rear seat so you can check the wing spar. Other then the before mentioned details the M20A maintenance is similar to the M20C. The positive of the M20A is a faster plane with a smoother ride in turbulence. Good luck! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRM Posted March 1, 2020 Report Share Posted March 1, 2020 22 hours ago, CW85 said: A bonus is that the plane comes with the hanger. That in itself, regrettably, may be the best feature of the deal. Vintage Mooneys do not do well outside. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted March 2, 2020 Report Share Posted March 2, 2020 21 hours ago, kerry said: If the wing is in good condition then I would go for it. In some ways I think it's less maintenance than a metal wing. No worries about leaking wet tanks seeping fuel. Wood wings have aluminum tanks that are easy to repair if needed. Things to look for are the flap brackets. Grab the flap brackets and pull on them back and forth. If no movement then it's a good sign. Step back and forth on the wing walk area. If the wing walk is firm with no play then its's golden. If there is some play then it's not a deal breaker but might need some wood work attention. Take a small mallet and lightly tap the plywood against the ribs especially against the flap area in the wings aft sections. If you detect any play or lifting between the wing plywood and ribs then I would probably pass. When the plywood starts to delaminate from the wood substructure it's not difficult to repair but it will require attention. There is a annual AD that requires removing the rear fuel tank under the rear seat so you can check the wing spar. Other then the before mentioned details the M20A maintenance is similar to the M20C. The positive of the M20A is a faster plane with a smoother ride in turbulence. Good luck! My hangar neighbor has a very nice M20A. At his last annual he pulled the rear seat and tank and did the spar inspection. I got to poke my head in and look at everything while it was apart. I would strongly suggest that this should be part of a pre-purchase inspection on an M20A on top of everything described above. My neighbor's was in good shape, but it would be bad news to get one that had problems. Definitely try to find somebody familiar with wood wing maintenance, preferably M20A wing maintenance, to look at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Moonster Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 N8155E 1959 M20A wing restoration.pdf Found these pictures of when my wing was restored in the 90's. Sorry about the PDF. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted March 3, 2020 Report Share Posted March 3, 2020 2 hours ago, 59Moonster said: N8155E 1959 M20A wing restoration.pdf 668.34 kB · 17 downloads Found these pictures of when my wing was restored in the 90's. Sorry about the PDF. Beautiful!! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike20papa Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 I've owned my '59 A model N8335E for over 10 years. Just had it painted and now back in the air. Yes, there are some obvious vulnerable aspects of the wood wing, but it has many advantages, too. (like removable/serviceable fuel tanks) I need to post some updates photos. I found/bought an old A model wood vert stab - they have been so ridiculed & bad mouthed ... Anyway, I carefull removed all of the ply wood skin to examine the glue joints, wood members, etc. There was NOT ONE area of delaminated plywood, failed glue line, nothing! Joe 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CW85 Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I haven't been able to find much information on price for the M20A. Does anyone know what they would be roughly worth? Have only found 1 on Controller in Alberta. Asking $50 000CAD. Is that reasonable? I figured you could get a B or C model for that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRM Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, CW85 said: I haven't been able to find much information on price for the M20A. Does anyone know what they would be roughly worth? Have only found 1 on Controller in Alberta. Asking $50 000CAD. Is that reasonable? I figured you could get a B or C model for that price. That's just 37 AMU, sounds like a deal if the bird is perfect (wings/fuse/etc.) and flies like it should. These will begin approaching 'rare' status (if not already there) where to own one is unique in itself. Frankly, I think it foolish to compare an A to a B or C. Totally different, look to your mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 The nice things about Bs &Cs... they can live outdoors pretty easily... in most places... like NJ... The operations costs for the A will be pretty close to the B&C.... Wooden planes prefer the indoors life.... Wooden planes want specific maintenance skills that may be less available in some locations... The number of carpenters working seems to decrease each year... See if you can figure out how to get wooden maintenance issues taken care of before they arise... There is probably a go to guy in every state for this... there are many planes made out of wood besides Mooneys... but none that are as nice... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 4 hours ago, CW85 said: I haven't been able to find much information on price for the M20A. Does anyone know what they would be roughly worth? Have only found 1 on Controller in Alberta. Asking $50 000CAD. Is that reasonable? I figured you could get a B or C model for that price. Instrument panels can cost that much... only partially updated... Start with a paper spreadsheet... and tally up the details... Use B and Cs for guidance... for comparison pricing... When the market is so small... comparing prices and value and worth... unfortunately, these numbers don’t exist... As the buyer... only you know the value, and the worth... now find a seller that will agree to your price... For competitive pricing... you need to find two similar planes for sale... One question... what makes the M20A interesting to you? Back in the day... I wanted an M20C, 1965 or newer for some reason... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CW85 Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 6 hours ago, carusoam said: Instrument panels can cost that much... only partially updated... Start with a paper spreadsheet... and tally up the details... Use B and Cs for guidance... for comparison pricing... When the market is so small... comparing prices and value and worth... unfortunately, these numbers don’t exist... As the buyer... only you know the value, and the worth... now find a seller that will agree to your price... For competitive pricing... you need to find two similar planes for sale... One question... what makes the M20A interesting to you? Back in the day... I wanted an M20C, 1965 or newer for some reason... Best regards, -a- I understand how to compare one plane to another. What I was asking is does this seem reasonable? It is the only A model I have been able to find for comparison. I have been able to find B and C models but not A and I realize they aren't a fare comparison. The only reason an M20A interests me is a family friend offered to sell me his, with the hangar. They are both on the same airport I currently keep my C150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Moonster Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 17 hours ago, CW85 said: I understand how to compare one plane to another. What I was asking is does this seem reasonable? It is the only A model I have been able to find for comparison. I have been able to find B and C models but not A and I realize they aren't a fare comparison. The only reason an M20A interests me is a family friend offered to sell me his, with the hangar. They are both on the same airport I currently keep my C150 in that case... with the plethora of info you have supplied... seems reasonable to me. It only needs to be reasonable to you. PP thoughts only, not a CFI or mechanic... most often when people are discussing Mooney values....they take into account a few things... 1) Airframe, interior, exterior... paint and seat coverings cost a lot... wing surfaces cost more... 2) Engine, prop, cowling and engine mount... engine OHs cost a lot... if it needs a prop, that would be more... 3) Instrument panel, comm and nav radios.... some panels need help... others would cost as much as the plane. 4) Everything included in the deal... spare hangar... in some places, the hangar is worth more than the plane... especially when it is a hangar house... in a really nice place... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 On 3/4/2020 at 12:55 PM, mike20papa said: I found/bought an old A model wood vert stab - they have been so ridiculed & bad mouthed ... Anyway, I carefull removed all of the ply wood skin to examine the glue joints, wood members, etc. There was NOT ONE area of delaminated plywood, failed glue line, nothing! Joe The challenge people had with keeping the wooden tail... 1) One fell off... (tail-less planes don’t fly very well) 2) Prompting a procedure to test the strength of all the wooden tales in the field... annually... 3) See if you can find the pull test for that... see if it is required... or if there is an alternate means of compliance... 4) Most M20As saw a mass migration into aluminum tails after that. So I have read... 5) The issue was more of what holds the tail connected to the plane, not the strength of the tail structure or materials... There may be an accident report that goes with that... and possibly an AD for the recommended service or change... Sharing the details I have read about... statistics based on a total of one accident aren’t very complete... I’m not very familiar with things beyond the PP level, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKlott Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 I thought there was an AD issued and that Mooney provided the metal replacement tail assembly “at cost” but this is from the deep, dark recesses of my memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 On 3/4/2020 at 6:25 PM, CW85 said: I haven't been able to find much information on price for the M20A. Does anyone know what they would be roughly worth? Have only found 1 on Controller in Alberta. Asking $50 000CAD. Is that reasonable? I figured you could get a B or C model for that price. I really like M20A's and I think they are the best value out there for speed, efficiency and price for a cross country machine. In my opinion 50K CAD is way over priced. You should be able to find a nice M20A for around 20K USD. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 See what the Canadian bird has for radios... it might have 30K CAD in GPS and engine monitor equipment that would be nice in any Mooney... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRM Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 53 minutes ago, BKlott said: I thought there was an AD issued and that Mooney provided the metal replacement tail assembly “at cost” but this is from the deep, dark recesses of my memory. The deep dark recesses of my neural cortex says there’s a wood tail flying around Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKlott Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 Mandatory Service Bulletin M20-170A required replacement of the wood empennage with the all metal empennage assembly within one year. Quoted price was $860.00! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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