Pattern and landing speeds.

[Ibra]

3 hours ago, brndiar said:

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

Having seen few go-around M20J from RHS and many LHS, I am not a big fan of "you can always go-around" I am more "go-around early" or "go-around slowly" or "don't go-around", I do these such that I don't have to worry about retracting gear (makes zero difference) and drag flaps (you just need enough time and runway to accelerate before touching them) and always right rudder with power

I always land full flaps when visual, except for IFR approach and crosswinds, I land clean (I mean clean on flaps, the gear is down all the way )

"go-around early"

Anytime I feel aircraft sinking and airspeed bleeding 5kts less than my target threshold speed for positive flare, I just go-around

I do sometimes recover from that by push nose down and gun it with lot of power but you have to accept no flare and long ground run 

"go-around slowly"

I am careful with [pitch, power, flaps], Mooney has to accelerate nose down slightly bellow horizon quickly toward the 80-90kts before nose and then flaps can be raised without sinking or loss of control, no worry about "Vx climbs" from go-around as long as it is done before mid-field, leveling to 80kts before climbing does outperform any short-field Vx climb take-off as there is already lot of extra energy (your approach and landing counts as "ground roll" before runway threshold)

"don't go-around"

Don't go-around after mid-field on full flaps, cut your loss: take power off (if it takes 1/2 runway to slow down for landing on full flaps it will take roughly same for takeoff on full flaps)

Don't go-around from bellow 50ft if you intentionally land it really slow on high power and don't go-around if you end up in "STOL configuration" by mistake (50ft agl, bellow 1.1*Vs0 speeds, nose high, high power and no excess of speed to flare), there is no recovery apart from pointing nose to hit the ground and cutting/putting power

Edited March 2, 2020 by Ibra

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, brndiar said:

Hi,

Colud someone here describe

"Step by step"

GO- AROUND PROCEDURES

(Eventuell procedere for "balked landing")

for Mooneys (vintage Models, J+Models)?

Of course as a recommendation. 

There is no such a Procedure in Mooney operators manuals.

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

P.s. sorry for my englisch. Hopefully not of topic. 

 

Lg,

Milos

Austria

 

I suggest advancing the throttle enough to arrest the descent and positive rate of climb. Trim to remove excessive pitch up force (take off position) . Then full power, put the flaps up and raise the gear.

This gets you climbing the quickest without fighting an out of trim condition.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about this and it can be one of those religious wars like no flap takeoffs and touch and gos.

 

Go and practice at altitude to figure out what works best for you and then practice at the airport. You should always be able to go around.

[Davidv]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I suggest advancing the throttle enough to arrest the descent and positive rate of climb. Trim to remove excessive pitch up force (take off position) . Then full power, put the flaps up and raise the gear.

This gets you climbing the quickest without fighting an out of trim condition.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about this and it can be one of those religious wars like no flap takeoffs and touch and gos.

 

Go and practice at altitude to figure out what works best for you and then practice at the airport. You should always be able to go around.

Exactly my procedure, I’ve found with full flaps just smoothly advancing the throttle without too much yoke movement is enough to give me a positive rate of climb.  I then started trimming back to a neutral position and take out full flaps and raise gear.  I’ve never felt like I was slowing excessively.

[steingar]

About 3 miles out I slow to gear speed and deploy the gear.  As soon as practicable I add full flaps.  I hit the downwind at 90, base 80, 70 (mph) over the numbers.

[brndiar]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I suggest advancing the throttle enough to arrest the descent and positive rate of climb. Trim to remove excessive pitch up force (take off position) . Then full power, put the flaps up and raise the gear.

This gets you climbing the quickest without fighting an out of trim condition.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about this and it can be one of those religious wars like no flap takeoffs and touch and gos.

 

Go and practice at altitude to figure out what works best for you and then practice at the airport. You should always be able to go around.

I found that somewhere in "Mapalog". Do not ask me what issue.  Suppose the speeds are for C model. 

My problem by practise was to retracte flaps from "full" to T/O, because electric switch does not have "T/O" and "landing" position. 

By practice i just count to 4 (in 4 sek.  motor retecte the flaps approximately from "full" to "T/O"

To react with "everything forward" with full flaps+ trim full aft with "long body Mooney" Could end tragically, with "departure stall" - have read that. 

Lg,m

 

[Andy95W]

8 hours ago, bradp said:

Better to land where you want with a thump than to grease it on beyond.  

 

I'm with Brad.  One of the best captains I ever learned from at my first airline job used this system to grade landings:

3 points - In the touchdown zone

2 points - On centerline

1 point - Soft

Maximum grade was a 6.

[Bob - S50]

5 hours ago, brndiar said:

Hi,

Colud someone here describe

"Step by step"

GO- AROUND PROCEDURES

(Eventuell procedere for "balked landing")

for Mooneys (vintage Models, J+Models)?

Of course as a recommendation. 

There is no such a Procedure in Mooney operators manuals.

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

P.s. sorry for my englisch. Hopefully not of topic. 

 

Lg,

Milos

Austria

 

Here's what I do in our J, but you may choose to do it differently.  And that fact that we have electric trim can make a big difference.  Once I make the decision to go around...

Cowl flaps open

Mixture full rich (at sea level or close to it)

Prop full forward

Throttle full forward

Check for positive rate either visually if VMC or on the VSI if IMC

Gear up

Watch for 80 KIAS and increasing (not decreasing)

Flaps up and start running the trim nose down to offset the trim change

Maintain the climb and accelerate to 100 KIAS

Pitch up to maintain 100 KIAS.

Cowl flaps to trailing

[Bob - S50]

14 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

 

I'm with Brad.  One of the best captains I ever learned from at my first airline job used this system to grade landings:

3 points - In the touchdown zone

2 points - On centerline

1 point - Soft

Maximum grade was a 6.

I'll modify that a bit for my standards, but without points:

1.  On speed in the touchdown zone.  No credit for touching down where you want if you are going like a bat out of hell; especially in a Mooney.

2.  On or close to the centerline.

3.  Firmness appropriate.  With lots of runway that is dry or wet: smooth.  And by the way, it's easier to be smooth on a wet runway.  On a snow covered runway that is short: firm to get the wheels spinning.  Screw the passengers.  They probably won't thank you for not letting them off at the Chevron station just off the field, but they should.

4.  Excellent lateral control.  If your head is whipping side to side as the nose swings left and right of the centerline, no credit.

5.  Normal braking.  If everybody in the plane is thrown forward by the sudden application of brakes and has to struggle to sit back upright: no credit.

[donkaye]

1 minute ago, Bob - S50 said:

Here's what I do in our J, but you may choose to do it differently.  And that fact that we have electric trim can make a big difference.  Once I make the decision to go around...

Cowl flaps open

Mixture full rich (at sea level or close to it)

Prop full forward

Throttle full forward

Check for positive rate either visually if VMC or on the VSI if IMC

Gear up

Watch for 80 KIAS and increasing (not decreasing)

Flaps up and start running the trim nose down to offset the trim change

Maintain the climb and accelerate to 100 KIAS

Pitch up to maintain 100 KIAS.

Cowl flaps to trailing

This is the best method described so far.  While most POHs say "Flaps to Approach" first after adding power, that will cause the nose to pitch up immediately and could cause loss of control, especially in the long body Mooneys.  Since drag of full flaps is close to the drag of the gear, raising  the gear first while trimming down lessens the possibility of loss of control as a result of the nose pitching up with flap retraction, while similarly reducing drag for the climb.

[Yetti]

27 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

 

I'm with Brad.  One of the best captains I ever learned from at my first airline job used this system to grade landings:

3 points - In the touchdown zone

2 points - On centerline

1 point - Soft

Maximum grade was a 6.

Landing off the centerline is not allowed.   lest you envoke a snarky comment from the CFII.  Think it was a Navy thing.

[Bob - S50]

Just now, Yetti said:

Landing off the centerline is not allowed.   lest you envoke a snarky comment from the CFII.  Think it was a Navy thing.

It depends.  At Holloman AFB the AT-38's treated runway 16 almost as two runways.  We were supposed to land on our HALF of the runway.  With a touch and go ahead of us, we could do a T&G or full stop on our half with the other airplane still on the runway and only 3000' spacing.

[JimB]

I am enjoying reading this thread and the different perspectives. Just a quick question on trim. It seems to me to be properly trimmed at 80 mph on final with full flaps in both F models I have flown, you need pretty much all the trim. I have found that when it's just me in the plane, as I get established on final and put in landing flaps, I just keep turning the trim till hit hits the stop. This is when the aircraft is pretty lightweight. Is that about right?

[Ibra]

39 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

One of the best captains I ever learned from at my first airline job used this system to grade landings:

...Maximum grade was a 6.

Setting yourself to high standards, never had a day with grade = 7 ?

[Andy95W]

21 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Setting yourself to high standards, never had a day with grade = 7 ?

Frankly, I'm just glad I haven't gotten a 0 yet!

[N201MKTurbo]

A Mooney isn’t a Boeing. They are apples and oranges. 
 

The first time I landed a Boeing sim, I tried my normal full stall landing and touched down a mile past the end of the runway. 

[Ibra]

5 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Frankly, I'm just glad I haven't gotten a 0 yet!

Yes not talking about 0 , but along the lines I was told airliners training syllabus is structured to get 5 consistently all times (positive landings: zero overrun, hydroplaning, skidding risks) and then smooth 6 as bonus but never at the cost of the first 5, this is at least the case for main European low-cost operators who cater for first FOs on 737s & Dash 8s, but I was not sure about this for US FO training?

I am sure, 0 and 7 are scored on visual circuit patterns with empty 737s (now mandatory)

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, Denver98 said:

I’ll confirm that the no flap landings were easier and MUCH smoother.  I really liked the feel of the airplane in ground effect with no flaps better than with full flaps.  I will definitely practice with different flap settings but given a long runway, no flap will probably be my preferred flap setting.  

Obviously individual opinion is subjective.  You're not the first to feel this way but it peaks my curiosity as to how long have you been flying Mooney?  I think your opinion may change if you really get comfortable with the airframe's low speed characteristics.  Most of the folks that I know who prefer no flap landings, feel that way because they do not like the the way the controls feel at 1.2Vso over the numbers.  I felt that way as well when I started flying Mooneys.  Roll axis in particular can feel mushy at low approach speeds, especially on bumpy, windy days.  However, it is an observable, objective fact that full flaps provide a number of advantages over no flap landings: superior visibility over the nose, additional drag ( particularly at high AOA in the flare/ground effect), lower stall speed and steeper approaches to name a few . After of 1000s of Mooney landings into strips ranging from 1500' to 10,000' I always use full flaps unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. In very strong crosswinds (Xwind component >20kts) the extra speed of a no flap approach can be helpful with control authority but it takes a lot of wind before the air-frame runs out of rudder at flap speed.

[gsxrpilot]

11 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Obviously individual opinion is subjective.  You're not the first to feel this way but it peaks my curiosity as to how long have you been flying Mooney?  I think your opinion may change if you really get comfortable with the airframe's low speed characteristics.  Most of the folks that I know who prefer no flap landings, feel that way because they do not like the the way the controls feel at 1.2Vso over the numbers.  I felt that way as well when I started flying Mooneys.  Roll axis in particular can feel mushy at low approach speeds, especially on bumpy, windy days.  However, it is an observable, objective fact that full flaps provide a number of advantages over no flap landings: superior visibility over the nose, additional drag ( particularly at high AOA in the flare/ground effect), lower stall speed and steeper approaches to name a few . After of 1000s of Mooney landings into strips ranging from 1500' to 10,000' I always use full flaps unless there is a good reason to do otherwise. In very strong crosswinds (Xwind component >20kts) the extra speed of a no flap approach can be helpful with control authority but it takes a lot of wind before the air-frame runs out of rudder at flap speed.

He's been corrupted by flying with me .  I much prefer no flap landings to full flap landings. I'm perfectly comfortable with both, but prefer a little more speed and no flaps. It's interesting that you mention visibility over the nose. I think the visibility is much better with no flaps. 

We do get a lot of wind at BJC. It's often gusty and not down the runway.  I recently got upon turning final, "Wind 270 at 34 G 41" for 31R. 

[gsxrpilot]

BTW, Scott can roll it on beautifully with any flap setting. And his stabilized approach is as smooth and steady as any I've seen in a Mooney. 

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, brndiar said:

Hi,

Colud someone here describe

"Step by step"

GO- AROUND PROCEDURES

(Eventuell procedere for "balked landing")

for Mooneys (vintage Models, J+Models)?

Of course as a recommendation. 

There is no such a Procedure in Mooney operators manuals.

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

P.s. sorry for my englisch. Hopefully not of topic. 

 

Lg,

Milos

Austria

 

This is my 7 step procedure and it works no matter how the plane is configured.  I've been trying to shorten it but I think each step is important...

 

1) Add enough power to arrest the descent

2) stay cool

3) Gently adjust to desired heading

4) stay cool

5) Clean up the airplane thoughtfully and methodically (no need for drama)

6) stay cool

7) configure for climb

[jlunseth]

I have to respectfully disagree with some of Don Kaye's approach. I don't disagree with the concept of a stabilized approach, but I disagree with practicing every landing as if it were a short field, and I have a idea why there is a difference between our approaches.  Palo Alto's field is 2,400 and change. The main runways at my home field, KFCM, are 3,800 and 5,000. I live in the midwest.  I travel all over, especially to the Dakotas.  Here in the midwest we get lots of gusty and/or crosswind landings, and Minnesota's winds are tame in comparison to the Dakotas or the western states.  Don't get me wrong, I love landing in mild winds with a ton of flaps out and at low speed, but over time I found that if I habituated myself to that by making that my landing M.O., I put myself in a dangerous position when landing winds are adverse, and they are adverse very often here.  And it is not just here, in the Bahamas, all the islands except perhaps Nassau are long and narrow, there is only one way to put a runway, and that is perpendicular to the winds coming in off the ocean. The runways are cut into the Bahamian pine forests, so on top of constant strong crosswinds, you get a strong wind change at the tree tops and swirling winds after that.  It is a bad place for low speed, full flaps landings.  At least in my aircraft, there is not enough rudder and control surface authority.  Better to habituate oneself to land half or no flaps, with a little more speed, and be prepared to add quite a bit more speed.

As everyone knows, often what appears to be a gusty crosswind will abate in ground effect.  However, we also have days out here in the midwest where it doesn't abate, or the opposite happens, the winds are worse at the surface than at pattern altitude, the problem is you never know which way it is going to be, the METARs won't tell you that.  I have landed in crosswind conditions varying 160 degrees very rapidly, winds in the high 20's, low 30's.  A clue is when the cattails in the slough off the runway are lying flat, all in the same direction, and changing from north to south.

If my home field had a short strip I might practice short field landings a lot.  But out of Minnesota's 138 airfields, only around 10-20% fall into that category, most are 3,000+, and out in the Dakotas the same thing.

I might do one or two true, full flaps, short field landings a year.  I land half flaps all the rest of the time except when I land no flaps. I like landing at 75 KIAS over the fence and do it as much as I can, but there are many times when it is just not a good idea.

[Hank]

8 hours ago, brndiar said:

Hi,

Colud someone here describe

"Step by step"

GO- AROUND PROCEDURES

(Eventuell procedere for "balked landing")

for Mooneys (vintage Models, J+Models)?

Of course as a recommendation. 

There is no such a Procedure in Mooney operators manuals.

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

P.s. sorry for my englisch. Hopefully not of topic. 

 

Lg,

Milos

Austria

 

This is what works in my C model, so it should work for you in yours:

1. Full throttle [no need to push it fast, just all the way]
2. Push on yoke, aiming for 100 mph climb
3. confirm positive climb on VSI, gear up
4. raise flaps to Takeoff [my preferred landing configuration, but sometimes I use more flaps]
5. Trim nose down to relieve yoke pressure and hold 100 mph

You may want to swap #3 and #4, but this works for me and my IVSI. Love that thing! No lag, it tells me what is happening right now.

[Hank]

1 minute ago, jlunseth said:

I have to respectfully disagree with some of Don Kaye's approach. I don't disagree with the concept of a stabilized approach, but I disagree with practicing every landing as if it were a short field, and I have a idea why there is a difference between our approaches.  Palo Alto's field is 2,400 and change. The main runways at my home field, KFCM, are 3,800 and 5,000. I live in the midwest.  I travel all over, especially to the Dakotas.  Here in the midwest we get lots of gusty and/or crosswind landings, and Minnesota's winds are tame in comparison to the Dakotas or the western states.  Don't get me wrong, I love landing in mild winds with a ton of flaps out and at low speed, but over time I found that if I habituated myself to that by making that my landing M.O., I put myself in a dangerous position when landing winds are adverse, and they are adverse very often here.  And it is not just here, in the Bahamas, all the islands except perhaps Nassau are long and narrow, there is only one way to put a runway, and that is perpendicular to the winds coming in off the ocean. The runways are cut into the Bahamian pine forests, so on top of constant strong crosswinds, you get a strong wind change at the tree tops and swirling winds after that.  It is a bad place for low speed, full flaps landings.  At least in my aircraft, there is not enough rudder and control surface authority.  Better to habituate oneself to land half or no flaps, with a little more speed, and be prepared to add quite a bit more speed.

As everyone knows, often what appears to be a gusty crosswind will abate in ground effect.  However, we also have days out here in the midwest where it doesn't abate, or the opposite happens, the winds are worse at the surface than at pattern altitude, the problem is you never know which way it is going to be, the METARs won't tell you that.  I have landed in crosswind conditions varying 160 degrees very rapidly, winds in the high 20's, low 30's.  A clue is when the cattails in the slough off the runway are lying flat, all in the same direction, and changing from north to south.

If my home field had a short strip I might practice short field landings a lot.  But out of Minnesota's 138 airfields, only around 10-20% fall into that category, most are 3,000+, and out in the Dakotas the same thing.

I might do one or two true, full flaps, short field landings a year.  I land half flaps all the rest of the time except when I land no flaps. I like landing at 75 KIAS over the fence and do it as much as I can, but there are many times when it is just not a good idea.

Yeah, me too--half flaps and 70-75 MPH works great! I learned and was based at a 3000', obstructed field, worked fine there, too, after leveling off on final to clear the trees. This leaves the trim almost perfect for the next takeoff. Sometimes I have to add more Flap Down, but it's just another control to reach the runway--throttle, yoke, flaps and trim all work together, and no two landings are exactly alike.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

He's been corrupted by flying with me .  I much prefer no flap landings to full flap landings. I'm perfectly comfortable with both, but prefer a little more speed and no flaps. It's interesting that you mention visibility over the nose. I think the visibility is much better with no flaps. 

We do get a lot of wind at BJC. It's often gusty and not down the runway.  I recently got upon turning final, "Wind 270 at 34 G 41" for 31R. 

Well I guess it depends on what you want to see.     RE visibility over the nose.  One can objectively say the following (all other things being equal):

1) Full flaps move the center of pressure (C/P) aft (keep in mind CG is always in front of C/P)

2) Full flaps increase the effective angle of incidence (angle of wing cord line to longitudinal axis of fuselage)

These two things mean that at a given AOA the fuselage (and therefor cockpit) will be pitched further down with full flaps than without.  From final all the way to flare the nose will be oriented more downward with flaps than without.  This is particularly helpful at short fields when using steep approaches.

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

When @Denver98 and I were out doing touch and goes in 252AD, he had good advice on the go around. Not that there's anything wrong with a list of tasks. If you're wanting to shorten that list, the one and only item you need is...

Stay calm and fly the airplane, don't let it fly you.