RUMOR: Mooney Purchased

[Parker_Woodruff]

Just now, DonMuncy said:

I blame the modern technology. When we were young, when a plane flew over, we ran outside to see. It seemed magical, and we longed to be able to "do that".

Now, any kid can buy a video game that seems much more thrilling than the real thing. For $20 and no effort or risk.  

Video games can certainly create an environment of easy achievement.  However, on a positive note, I got into aviation because I received Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 for Christmas when I was in middle school.  I was never great at flying the Concorde, however.  My favorite trip was DEN - COS in a CRJ-200 I downloaded.

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I blame the modern technology. When we were young, when a plane flew over, we ran outside to see. It seemed magical, and we longed to be able to "do that".

Now, any kid can buy a video game that seems much more thrilling than the real thing. For $20 and no effort or risk.  

Well - I grew up under the approach paths not to far from a big airport - now called Reagan KDCA, so I didn't exactly run out to see airplanes as they were constantly coming - but I do remember looking up all the time to see what they were.  And there were also military airplanes flying about so they were interesting to see - I always enjoyed.

But also I played with toy airplanes from a very early age alone and also with my dad.  Things you would build and fly.

Sometimes I feel like my Mooney is a big model airplane I get to control from the inside rather than a smaller RC plane I would control from the outside.

Boy I flew on a blue bird clear winter day today (white and bright) and still perfect crisp air, 22F and it was glorious!  Do that in a Microsoft simulator.  I know it can render the images, but ...no not the same.

Plus you can go places...for REAL!  And spend over night for real. And eat real food.  I have a several stop southern trip in two weeks.  The real South - not the rendered south in Microsoft or xPlane.

[StevenL757]

I can confirm through a source extremely close to the factory that it has not been purchased yet unfortunately.  This stemming from a conversation I had with the source earlier this evening.

[DonMuncy]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Boy I flew on a blue bird clear winter day today (white and bright) and still perfect crisp air, 22F and it was glorious!  Do that in a Microsoft simulator.  I know it can render the images, but ...no not the same.

Plus you can go places...for REAL!  And spend over night for real. And eat real food.  I have a several stop southern trip in two weeks.  The real South - not the rendered south in Microsoft or xPlane.

I agree with you, but I think a lot of that is lost on the younger generation. (Do I sound like an old geezer?)

And now "going somewhere" is so cheap and commonplace with the airlines, I am afraid many of them can not see that as such a great deal. Naturally, "we" all know different.

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I agree with you, but I think a lot of that is lost on the younger generation. (Do I sound like an old geezer?)

And now "going somewhere" is so cheap and commonplace with the airlines, I am afraid many of them can not see that as such a great deal. Naturally, "we" all know different.

I agree in general.

But I can say at least that I am very close to those in the younger generation who do still have spark.  I am a professor of mathematics and ECE and I also work closely with aeronautical engineering majors.  Some of them just want to build things, including airplanes (and wind turbines, and other fluid things...like oceans, like air passages in your throat, etc) so my general daily life is to be constantly impressed and en-heartened by the rising generation.  Some also want to, and do, learn to actually fly.  But over all - I think the story you are stating is broadly true.  Oh, AND let me be the first to brag about my son(s). Our middle son is graduating a mechanical engineering student this spring, emphasis aero and he is admitted into the aeronautical engineering PhD program at Caltech -' which is quite a good place for a kid who likes all things fluids.  Lots of cool JPL projects next-door too.  (All 3 of my sons are wonderful! And they all 3 have widely different interests from each other and only one in aero - so I will refrain bragging about the other two on this aero forum - it won't take much to get me started).

Maybe  broadly the new ness of the technology drove the interest early in the century then the patriotism.glory of WWII pilots in the middle of the century then the glory of Apollo in the later century.  Now what?  Soon will come quadcopter (octocopter, etc) Uber rides ordered on your iPhone and piloted by a neural net software program?  That seems convenient but not very dream inspiring.  Not like putting a man on the Moon.

Edited March 2, 2020 by aviatoreb

[carusoam]

So I went to the home office to see what year my MSFS was...

My first contact... was in 83... a friend showed me a copy... at his house...

In 86, I was running a copy on a work computer...

The oldest version in the home office is from the mid 90s... as real as it gets...

An upgrade was in honor of the 100th anniversary of flight... in 04...

A couple of upgrades... for flight in the NYC area... and WWII combat version...

The latest has been a cloud based version... provided by Stream...

I got my PP license in the 90s probably right after the first box of simulator went on my shelf...

 

Downloading the MSFS of the Internet is not very expensive...

 

Or it could have been the air force was always flying delta darts over the house on Cape Cod...  every now and then we would get a sonic boom...

PP fuzzy memories only, but I did check the shelf for the software dates... thanks Parker!

One day Parker will be spinning his stories to a younger crowd...

Best regards,

-a-

[mooneyflyer]

Update: Rumor is that there are 2 potential buyers... Hope at least half of this rumor is true.

[chriscalandro]

2 hours ago, mooneyflyer said:

Update: Rumor is that there are 2 potential buyers... Hope at least half of this rumor is true.

What if one of them is Cirrus?

[Volzalum]

I personally believe that there are fewer younger pilots because many of our younger generations have been over prescribed medications (add, etc,) and or reportable medical treatments. For those potential pilots, the hoops that they have to jump through to get the initial 3rd class medical are too expensive for them. If we ever get to a time where the FAA itself is not involved in the certification of private pilots (basic med still currently requires an initial 3rd class), then I think there will be many more pilots. Reform is needed as much as new aircraft.

[aviatoreb]

There is another elephant in the room as to why there may be fewer young (teens and twenties) and mid-young (30's and 40's) pilots coming into the pilot population and then the buyers markets.

Rather than blame the twenty-somethings... let's remember - 

Its EXPENSIVE!  Seems like it is much more expensive than it may have been in the 60s and 70s?  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as if either a person is independently wealthy, or this activity takes a larger fraction of a typical young professional's cash than it would have in the 70s era.  I mean compared to buying a house, having some kids, not on a brain surgeon's salary but maybe on a starter IT-department specialist, for example - is it do-able?  No matter how much desire, will there is not enough cash, then it becomes a choice for many - save up to buy a house or spend it on a hundred hours a year?

Edited March 2, 2020 by aviatoreb

[RobertGary1]

53 minutes ago, Volzalum said:

I personally believe that there are fewer younger pilots because many of our younger generations have been over prescribed medications (add, etc,) and or reportable medical treatments. For those potential pilots, the hoops that they have to jump through to get the initial 3rd class medical are too expensive for them. If we ever get to a time where the FAA itself is not involved in the certification of private pilots (basic med still currently requires an initial 3rd class), then I think there will be many more pilots. Reform is needed as much as new aircraft.

Is that true? From everything I've seen student starts are better than I've seen in 20 years. I walked into a flight school and it happened to come up I was a cfii. They almost refused to let me leave, they have more students than they can get instructors and examiners for. Students are being turned away because they lack instructors and examiners are so booked up. 

-Robert

[Shadrach]

On 2/21/2020 at 10:24 AM, N6758N said:

I agree Paul, but who buys a business if not to make a profit?  Ferrari is also not the greatest comparison- you can be damn sure they make a profit! Think about all the racing teams, sponsorships, advertisements, etc....Maybe if they marketed more like Ferrari they could be on to something...

Individuals looking to be involved in a vanity or passion project that have profit from a number of businesses that would otherwise go to the government .  Corporate flight departments are a big fat way of turning taxable profits into fun.  Aviation businesses are often the same. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Shadrach

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

What if one of them is Cirrus?

I heard it was Boeing?

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

The airlines are finally paying something.  Maybe we'll get a nice amount of people wanting to buy airplanes as today's airline pilots get their captain upgrades.

[Igor_U]

7 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

I heard it was Boeing?

 

I doubt that. After Max fiasco, they have no $$. 

 

[Mooney217RN]

1 hour ago, Volzalum said:

I personally believe that there are fewer younger pilots because many of our younger generations have been over prescribed medications (add, etc,) and or reportable medical treatments. For those potential pilots, the hoops that they have to jump through to get the initial 3rd class medical are too expensive for them. If we ever get to a time where the FAA itself is not involved in the certification of private pilots (basic med still currently requires an initial 3rd class), then I think there will be many more pilots. Reform is needed as much as new aircraft.

Probably a small component of why there are few young folks desiring to get into aviation, but there is another underlying current.

We live in a world today where adventure is almost unheard of, exploration is accomplished upon a phone or tablet, and people are overly concerned to the point of being outright conservative towards activities.  Think of your childhood - no seatbelts, no helmets, ride your bike anywhere you so desired to go, walk to school, see the world.  Today's kids don't live in that environment.  Even worse, younger generations have practically abandoned independence.  They are risk adverse.  That in and of itself really defines where we're at today and why younger folks don't have that burning desire to learn to fly.

[MarkD34M]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

There is another elephant in the room as to why there may be fewer young (teens and twenties) and mid-young (30's and 40's) pilots coming into the pilot population and then the buyers markets.

Rather than blame the twenty-somethings... let's remember - 

Its EXPENSIVE!  Seems like it is much more expensive than it may have been in the 60s and 70s?  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as if either a person is independently wealthy, or this activity takes a larger fraction of a typical young professional's cash than it would have in the 70s era.  I mean compared to buying a house, having some kids, not on a brain surgeon's salary but maybe on a starter IT-department specialist, for example - is it do-able?  No matter how much desire, will there is not enough cash, then it becomes a choice for many - save up to buy a house or spend it on a hundred hours a year?

Aviatoreb:

It sure is expensive - although I think it always has been to some degree, perhaps not as much as today.  I do seem to remember many in my era would do whatever it took to go flying even if that meant making other sacrifices. In fact, my brother did exactly that and went all in despite having an engineering degree and a full time job at Sikorski. Today he is a captain for UPS and still flies a KC135 for the guard and has two pensions and gets to fly for a living. And, guess where he went to college (saw your avitar) - Clarkson:). He said it was cold up there but I don't have to tell you that:) Plug in that pre-heater. 

Mark

[LANCECASPER]

19 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Video games can certainly create an environment of easy achievement.  However, on a positive note, I got into aviation because I received Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000 for Christmas when I was in middle school.  I was never great at flying the Concorde, however.  My favorite trip was DEN - COS in a CRJ-200 I downloaded.

I still have socks in my drawer from 2000.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

What if one of them is Cirrus?

That would be great. Their marketing is lightyears ahead of everyone else's. The cabin is already composite on the Ultra. They may actually sell some airplanes if Cirrus bought them.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Mooney217RN said:

Probably a small component of why there are few young folks desiring to get into aviation, but there is another underlying current.

We live in a world today where adventure is almost unheard of, exploration is accomplished upon a phone or tablet, and people are overly concerned to the point of being outright conservative towards activities.  Think of your childhood - no seatbelts, no helmets, ride your bike anywhere you so desired to go, walk to school, see the world.  Today's kids don't live in that environment.  Even worse, younger generations have practically abandoned independence.  They are risk adverse.  That in and of itself really defines where we're at today and why younger folks don't have that burning desire to learn to fly.

You guys need to get out more often. The FBO's are overflowing with young student pilots. Examiners are booked out 3 months right now on the coasts.

-Robert 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, MarkD34M said:

Aviatoreb:

It sure is expensive - although I think it always has been to some degree, perhaps not as much as today.  I do seem to remember many in my era would do whatever it took to go flying even if that meant making other sacrifices. In fact, my brother did exactly that and went all in despite having an engineering degree and a full time job at Sikorski. Today he is a captain for UPS and still flies a KC135 for the guard and has two pensions and gets to fly for a living. And, guess where he went to college (saw your avitar) - Clarkson:). He said it was cold up there but I don't have to tell you that:) Plug in that pre-heater. 

Mark

No way!

Tell your brother if he ever comes back for a Clarkson alumnae reunion - to look me up!  I'll take him for a ride.  Especially if he will take me for a ride in his KC1351

It is cold - we are still covered in lots of snow and I had a lovely day XC skiing yetserday -' then I went flying on a perfect clear blue crisp day.  ..and she is plugged in.

[KSMooniac]

I've written this before here I believe... flying wasn't always as expensive as it is today. Friends/coworkers did their own informal study when we were at Cirrus and plotted the price of a new 172 versus an average engineering starting salary. From The 50's through the late 70's it was pretty much 1:1. That means ownership was a realistically attainable goal for an average middle class household.

Today, a new 172 is 6-8x an engineering starting salary... I'd argue that is absolutely NOT attainable.

The divergence in new 172 price relative to engineering salary coincides with the explosion of liability lawsuits...

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[exM20K]

Another impediment to youth participation: ADHD medicine is a prohibitor. I don’t know how widespread use of these medications is, but I know of at least one young man, who appeared to me to be smart and capable, who is limited to Sport pilot because of this.

 

I have no experience with these medications, but I suspect their use is fairly widespread. 
-dan

[Huitt3106]

I’d like to get in here a bit as a millennial pilot (32 years old) and with experience having been previously prescribed Ritalin for ADD and also having spent a lot of time playing video games. First off, having been prescribed Ritalin in the past and then failing my medical because of it was a ridiculous headache. I had to take a neuropsychological test to show that I had an acceptable attention span (by whatever antiquated standard the FAA uses). That was quite expensive and I had to drive to Washington DC to do it. The only reason I went that far was my drive to get my license. It eventually worked out but took months to get my approval after the $2000 test the took 5 hours.

I find any argument about video games removing “today’s kids” from reality to be kind of far fetched. I also spent a lot of time outdoors but socialized a lot playing video games online (really teaches you how vulgar all cultures are). I’m not saying some kids can’t get addicted or lose touch with reality, but the vast majority of kids are/ were like me. They were fun to play with our buddies. I may come off more adversarial here than I mean to but I’ve heard blame placed on video games throughout my life.

I think the biggest issue I see when it comes to new pilots/ potential pilots has already been stated a couple times. It’s really really expensive. The only reason I was initially able to get my license was due to a grandparent passing away and leaving me $10,000. I could have afforded to do it, I just was too cautious to jump into something that expensive. I think a lot of this mindset of our generation can be tied into coming of adult age in the middle of the Great Recession. It took me over a year after college to get an entry level position that payed what my part time job was paying at small restaurant. Since I got the initial boost of funding and absolutely fell in love with flying I have committed much more of my extra cash into aviation. I have read similar comparisons to those already mentioned in the affordability of aviation today verses the 60s, 70s, and maybe early 80s. People have a lot more resources today (distractions if you will) but normal social culture allows less disposable income.

Just my thoughts.


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[Huitt3106]

Another impediment to youth participation: ADHD medicine is a prohibitor. I don’t know how widespread use of these medications is, but I know of at least one young man, who appeared to me to be smart and capable, who is limited to Sport pilot because of this.
 
I have no experience with these medications, but I suspect their use is fairly widespread. 
-dan

I went through this. If he can pass a neuropsychological exam then he can get his medical. It’s a pain though. Can no longer take any adhd medication of course.


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