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First fixed wing, experienced helo guy, need some ideas.


JD548

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New to forums and fixed wing flying, in fact I have not begun a transition yet. Some background; 3K + rotor hours, commercial/instrument ratings, maintenance test pilot, maintenance examiner, Instructor Pilot, Instrument Flight Examiner history. 6 years turning wrenches, am an A&P, work as Director of Safety at a renowned A&P school. Ok, here's the questions 1) Good or bad idea to do my transition/train in my Mooney M20J (don't have it yet)? 2) Purchase a less than pretty one and make it, update it to what I want? 3) Spend more and get one with mods and glass panel? My end state desire is IFR/autopilot and a glass panel airplane. I have flown steam gauges from the OH-6 to MPD's in the AH-64. Time to get flying again and do some travel. Any suggestions appreciated, I am sold on the Mooney so no need to go there, Thanks!

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1) Good idea in my opinion. 

2 / 3) if you can find a plane equipped the way you want it, it will almost certainly be cheaper that buying one that you need to update. The problem may be in finding one for sale that has what you want. The up side of updating an airplane is it will end up being exactly the way you want it.

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With your flight experience and abilities you should be able to do transition training in a Mooney.   Finding a compatible instructor who appreciates  your existing skills, understands the differences, and is more than familiar with Mooney's will be a challenge.    Where are you located?   The person I bought my Mooney from is a CFII and he did my transition training.  He is also helo rated- somebody like him would be perfect.   I'm in Alabama.

Edited by 0TreeLemur
clarity.
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Here's what I did: I bought the cleanest, latest model airframe I could find/afford with a run out engine and avionics that I could live with. I replaced the engine with a factory rebuilt. Lycoming IO-360s rarely make TBO unless they fly a few hundred hours/yr as the lifters corrode and cause the cam to spall. The factory installs roller lifters in its new and rebuilt engines that should fix this. At this point I had a solid airframe with a new engine and good IFR capability: Aspen PFD, GNS 430W, KAP 150 AP to which I added a GTX 345 transponder for ADS-B and an iPad yoke mount with a USB power cube for a moving map.

Today there is a bewildering array of avionics available. It's very easy to get panel envy and put a LOT of money into a 25-40 year-old airplane that you will never get back. It's certainly fine if you want to do that, but I'd think it through carefully. One of the nice things about Mooneys is that they came pretty well equipped from the factory. Sure some of the stuff is old, but a KX165 for instance works just as well as newer Nav/Coms and you can find lots of used replacements to inexpensively maintain the old stuff. In my case, I only plan to upgrade things that add utility or replace items that are no longer cost effective to maintain. I figure once your cake has an electronic PFD, WAAS, ADS-B In/Out and a 2 axis autopilot, everything else is frosting.

I didn't worry about paint and interior during my search so long as the condition was reflected in the purchase price. After all,  I figured I was buying an old, used airplane. But do be aware that a new interior and paint job will set you back around $20-25K - more if you go premium. Also, be aware that airplanes for sale frequently have deferred maintenance not all of which will be caught on the pre-purchase inspection which is really just a quick look for deal killers. So, the first year of ownership is often costly in terms of unexpected maintenance.

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Part of your decision also depends on the amount you want to spend on the initial purchase. Only $70-85K? Get a runout J or decent F and update/upgrade everything to your personal specs. Willing to drop $125-145K on the purchase and you should be able to find a plane set up like you want with the previous owner(s) choices. If they match yours, you are good to go.

Me? I spent between those two ranges in 2013 and am building it into a "forever" plane. As I have to pay the avionics guys to do the work I want, it sometimes sits for longer than I would like, but that is my only option.

For an instructor, you might check themooneyflyer.com. They have listings by state of Mooney CFI's and usually provide some background on each of them. Might find a good match.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

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Consider building your wealth of knowledge...

Transition to fixed wing using a C172... probably take a few hours/days...???

Then transition to the Mooney of your choice...

This way you go in fully appreciating where you are going without accidentally beating up a new 2U plane...

 

Long slender wings, close to the ground... make transitioning, a super multi-tasking cognitive challenge...

Getting the experience of flying different planes is like adding tools to your tool box...

Probably the same in helicopters...

Best regards,

-a-

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I think Anthony's advice, above, is excellent.  While you're looking for your Mooney, start flying a local flight school 's 172.  They're designed to be plopped (or smashed) on landing.  By the time you find your forever airplane, you won't be worried about breaking it.

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On 2/16/2020 at 6:22 AM, carusoam said:

Transition to fixed wing using a C172... probably take a few hours/days...???

The conceptual difference between initial training in rotary vs fixed wings: lighter slow trainers are difficult to master in rotary while fast heavy fixed wing trainers are bit hit and miss, I don't think Mooney is inadequate for initial fixed wing training?

Probably not very good for dual T&G exercises on short fields and needs "training gentleman" on engine controls and pitch axis but other than that it should work well with a decent CFI in a calm circuit/area and long runway (surely far away from slow/tight school traffic or you will learn how to fly it on the back-side of the drag curve :D)

I recall a similar 2Kh helis profile who went solo cross-country on my school C172 after 4h and got his PPL check ride 2 weeks later, it could have been 5 days IMO if the school was aggressive on weather

Edited by Ibra
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7 hours ago, Ibra said:

, I don't think Mooney is inadequate for initial fixed wing training?

 

We are all in agreement with that...

I’m still working on my writing skills... so let me try again... 

 

  • Using a C172 will be quicker to the finish line, typically.  If making a beeline makes sense Or is desired.  Getting the paperwork (ppl fixed wing) achieved...
  • The added benefits of flying a trainer will help fine tune later training in the Mooney. Just by having something to compare to.
  • To give an example... do a series of stalls in a C172...  then follow up with the training to recognize and recover from the stall regime in the Mooney... 
  • Engine out procedures are pretty good too... The C172 acts like it has a drag chute... the Mooney has a bit of glide to it...
  • Landing a few feet above the runway is best done in somebody else’s trainer... Mooneys are good, but they increase their vertical velocity quickly... as the wing root stalls...

I took time off from flying a couple of times... upon my returns, trying to demonstrate skills in an LB is pretty tough compared to the C172... Essentially three days of transition training... each time...

 

Yes some people learn to fly using an LB... I think MB can attest to that...  it just isn’t the easier route.

There won’t be a disadvantage to using a C172... the advantages are becoming an even more well rounded pilot... :)

A more well rounded, rotary, pilot... sounds very circular...

I probably still didn’t clear that up... :)

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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I'm currently trainig an atp rotor guy. Has thousands of hours. Just solo'd him today. You have to do the training to jump categorys so your looking at 30 hours min for private then training  for instrument. Start by renting a 172. The control inputs are very different for landings. I find rotary guys have some trouble with crosswinds, even light ones. Get 20 or 30 hours in a 172 first then buy the mooney. Generally takes awhile to find your plane anyway. 

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I had a partner who was a 2000 hour AH64 pilot.   He got his fixed wing instrument and private at a flight school, then jumped into a Mooney.  He did well.   Insurance was higher then it should have been, since they seemed focused on time in type, and time in airplanes. 

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Welcome. Because you are a skilled A&P you can perhaps update a plane and transfer some sweat equity. But my experience in having spent a ton of time and money updating my 231, is that had I just kept looking for an already updated plane, I would have saved about $20-30K. I bought my 1979 M20K in 2011 with 400 hours on a factory new engine. My pre-purchase inspection failed to reveal the new tank sealing that was needed just months after my purchase, and my radio and transponder dropped dead in the first year with two cylinders giving out at the annual. I ultimately had new windows, complete new interior, tanks stripped and resealed, G500 panel with new GPS/transponder/ADS-B/engine monitor, new tires, new donuts, new cylinders, and  paint repair. I have about $60K more into it than it can be sold for.  I do like it and plan to fly it for many more years. So my ultimate advice would be once you have your fixed wing PPL, keep looking and buy one with all the big stuff already done. Ray

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Thanks everyone for the replies. All good comments. I did find a local CFI with an Archer. Now, I am sure this topic has come up before so if anyone can point the direction as I don't need to tie this one up. Commercial Rotor Instrument to PPL. From what I have read most agree now written's are required however as far as time I have read anywhere from 3 to 30 hours (?). I just need to know the minimum, I can read FAR's, don't understand why such wide opinions.

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JD,

For Mooney pilots... Is the rotorcraft an add-on or is start from ground zero...?

For helicopter pilots... Is the fixed wing an add-on or is it start from ground zero..?


From a logical point of view...

Expect the minimum number of flight hours to get to the fixed wing solo level...  (all about demonstrating flying the plane, and E-procedures) expect reviewing the tech details before hand to be import as well... so ground school probably has some hours too...

These hours are all about fixed wing flight, and how to avoid getting killed why flying a fixed wing...

After solo, is X-country oriented... demoing in-Flight weather knowledge and navigation... and a touch of engine ops...

perusing/memorizing the FARs will be needed for the written... Consider what a fixed wing pilot would need to know about basic helicopter flight...  I would expect a helicopter pilot wasn’t required to know anything about fixed wing flight...

If you haven’t demonstrated all the fixed wing stuff... there isn’t going to be a by-round...

If there was... that would be a class I wouldn’t want to skip...

MS has quite a few people with rotor skills...

Your question seems to be directed at somebody with CFI/rotor/CFI fixed wing...

Most of the Robinson pilots in my area also have the fixed wing to get started... a cost driven thing...

The rest of us are probably giving best estimates... based on what makes sense...

Not sure how many of us have a CFI-Rotor rating...

Lets invite a known MS CFII fixed wing guy to the conversation... @midlifeflyer (requirements for adding fixed wing to a rotary wing License...)

Midlife is  pretty good with the FARs...   :) (as are several other MSers)

Expect that your personal skills are the most important part... your ability to learn quickly, and demonstrate the needed skills...

Don’t forget to write about your experience... somebody may want to follow your steps...

It will be interesting to see what parts of flying single engine fixed wing gave you the most unexpected hassle... (aside from the FARs :))

Look at it this way... If you are a specialist in heart surgery, and want to become a skin doctor... there isn’t going to be a free pass that gets you to where you want to be... they are simply different skills... 

Too bad the written rules are so difficult to read/understand...

after you read a couple of books... FAA/FDA... they become a whole lot easier to read and understand...  :)

Realistically, @Pete M Just gave an actual figure above... might want to PM him with all your details...?

Best regards,

-a-

 

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It gets confusing because the reg only pertains to "aeronaughtical experince" in category as listed in the pp training reg. Its further confused by the fact that you are not a student pilot so its hard to know what solo x/c endorsements are required. You have to read the fars very carefully and note whats specifically required in airplanes. The written test is not required. My 30 hours is based on the actual training you need with a cfi. The other 10 hours is solo. So you still end up at 40 hours. 

Now, if i recall correctly, and you will need to check the ifr far but there may be a specified number of hours in airplanes for ifr and you do need 50 in airplanes for commercial. If you're interested in flying airplanes for a living then there's the question of multi. Whether to do commercial in the multi or just get it as an add on. 

Dont be in a hurry. In my experience, you should be able to fly to commercial standards before you hop in any mooney and go traipsing around the country:) if you can do that in 40 hours, great, but not likely. Also, any weaknesses you have will be amplified significantly when and if you go for your multi commercial. Thats not a place you want to get stuck as its very expensive to fix paying for a multi. 

Back to pp, Some fsdo's and some 141 schools may allow for less time in category but you'd have to call the flight schools directly and we're generally only talking a few hours. You can also use some sim time but its cert and reg specific. 

Where are you located? Oh' forgot to mention, if you have decent flying skills, training in a j or short body isnt a terrible idea but do get about 20 or so hours learning how to land in a 172. 

If you approach this like a professional pilot, memorize your check lists, power settings and configurations, vspeeds ect; memorize and chair fly the manuevers,  you will breeze through it. If you approach it like a past time it will take much longer especially when you go complex / commercial.

Edited by Pete M
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13 hours ago, carusoam said:

JD,

For Mooney pilots... Is the rotorcraft an add-on or is start from ground zero...?

For helicopter pilots... Is the fixed wing an add-on or is it start from ground zero..?

 

 

It's not an "add on" like a type rating or adding commercial multi or seaplane. It's a new category so the aeronautical experience listed in the training reg is required. There are two regs that cover it and i always have to dig to find the language:) its not a start from ground zero either because cert requirements list training required, time in category, and total time in flying contraptions:) Example, commercial is 250 total but only 50 in airplanes for airplane single engine land commercial. Also, no written required.

Edited by Pete M
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It's an aircraft category add-on covered by FAR 61.63(b) Other than for ATPs):

Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:
(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.
(2) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.
(3) Must pass the practical test.
(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, weight-shift-control aircraft, powered parachute, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

Note the difference between this and an additional class rating, which specifically says the applicant , "Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought."

Putting it all together, the applicant for an additional category (as opposed to class) rating must meet all the time and training requirements which specifically apply to the category at that certificate level. So, for example, a helicopter pilot who wants to go single engine fixed wing at the private non-instrument level and has zero logged fixed wing experience needs to do all the tasks in 61.109 which specifiy "in a single engine airplane." That comes down to 30 hours, the 20 dual in 61.109 and 10 hours of solo described in 61.109(a). 

 

 

 

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