tigers2007

IFR approach question. GTN doesn't want me to do a procedure turn?

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I was doing some practice yesterday and my GTN did not want to "guide" me via the magenta line to perform the Pt at the IAF as implied on the plate. It wanted to me to do this 150 degree turn at the IAF instead. Is this normal or is this a case of garbage-in, garbage-out as I programmed the approach into the GTN?

 

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The plate says NoPT if entering from either side of DUCER, so I think it was correct, no?

 

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You need to load and activate the approach at DUCER transition. Not VECTORS TO FINAL which is the default. If you do so it will properly put in the hold at DUCER in the flight plan and will fly it. If approaching DUCER from the east it will ask you if you want course reversal at DUCER.

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Hard to tell from the scant info you provided. Where were you when you activated the approach? How did you activate the approach? Did you select VTF? Did you designate DUCER-EDLUC the active leg? Did you edit the flight plan and perhaps eliminate the hold?

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41 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Hard to tell from the scant info you provided. Where were you when you activated the approach? How did you activate the approach? Did you select VTF? Did you designate DUCER-EDLUC the active leg? Did you edit the flight plan and perhaps eliminate the hold?

Yes, I can’t figure out what you are asking either. The magenta line you drew results in a turn of about 290, not 150.  If the turn was 150, that means you were in the TAA at the bottom of the approach plate, in other words you were east of the line perpendicular through the approach course. That TAA is marked NoPT. 

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I put this approach into the GTN simulator and for some reason it flew the hold regardless of which quadrant I was approaching DUCER from, even from within the 005-185 sector of the TAA. Weird.

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On 2/13/2020 at 9:51 PM, flyboy0681 said:

I put this approach into the GTN simulator and for some reason it flew the hold regardless of which quadrant I was approaching DUCER from, even from within the 005-185 sector of the TAA. Weird.

I don’t find this weird. The plate depicts a hold at DUCER. It does not state PT Not Authorized. If you activate the approach at DUCER it will give you the hold as published, i.e. 4nm at 2600. What you do with that hold, i.e. fly it for course reversal or to lose alt or both or delete it if don’t need it, is up to you. If approaching from the west you most likely will need it for course reversal. From the east most likely not for course reversal but maybe to lose altitude. If you don’t need to fly around the hold it can be deleted on flight plan page. 
Now, because DUCER is an IF/IAF, if atc clears for the approach prior to reaching the fix from the east they expect one circuit around the hold for purposes of course reversal. If need more circuits to lose altitude for example, must tell them so. If approaching from the west the plate states NO Pt. So do not assume because GTN asks if you want it you can do so. 

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I was approaching from the NW (the arrow wings on the magneta line I drew). I don’t remember activating vectors to final. The turbulence was so bad so maybe I hit something. I might run this again tomorrow if I can get up in the air again. I’ll practice with the Garmin app before I fly. I totally forgot about the iPad app.

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Yes, I can’t figure out what you are asking either. The magenta line you drew results in a turn of about 290, not 150.  If the turn was 150, that means you were in the TAA at the bottom of the approach plate, in other words you were east of the line perpendicular through the approach course. That TAA is marked NoPT. 


I meant the GTN wanted me to steer a 150 degree turn to the right (120 heading and to 275 heading); I should have drew a better little airplane on the magenta my bad.

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I'm still confused. The plate shows to TAAs. The one east of DUCER is NoPT. The one west of DUCER requires the PT. Loading the approach with DUCER as the IAF transition should get the hold or not  the option as appropriate for your direction of travel to DUCER.

if it didn't, the approach was entered incorrectly or there is an error in the system.

Edited by midlifeflyer
Corrected

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6 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

I was approaching from the NW (the arrow wings on the magneta line I drew). I don’t remember activating vectors to final. The turbulence was so bad so maybe I hit something. I might run this again tomorrow if I can get up in the air again. I’ll practice with the Garmin app before I fly. I totally forgot about the iPad app.

Approaching DUCER from the northwest with DUCER loaded as the IAF transition and as the currently active waypoint should have given you the procedure turn. The aircraft was positioned at UZMEF in this simulation.

image.thumb.jpeg.7df6166fd0abb70dc6ab87759a505b03.jpeg

Arriving from KSJX in the NoPT sector, OTOH, it asked whether I wanted to fly the course reversal.

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2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I'm still confused. The plate shows to TAAs. The one east of DUCER is NoPT. The one west of DUCER requires the PT. Loading the approach with DUCER as the IAF transition should get the hold or not as appropriate for your direction of travel to DUCER.

if it didn't, the approach was entered incorrectly or there is an error in the system.

No. Activating the approach at DUCER from any direction will give you the hold. It may ask you if you want it depending on which direction you are approaching. What you do with it is your choice according to what you need. Course reversal, lose altitude, both or neither. If you don’t need it you can delete it. It is merely a hold for any of those purposes. It does not say PT NA.

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7 minutes ago, PTK said:

No. Activating the approach at DUCER from any direction will give you the hold. What you do with it is your choice according to what you need. Course reversal, lose altitude, both or neither. If you don’t need it you can delete it. It is merely a hold for any of those purposes. It does not say PT NA.

You are correct. From the west it gives yiu the hold. From the east it gives yiu the option. Middle of the night brain fart.

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9 hours ago, PTK said:

I don’t find this weird. The plate depicts a hold at DUCER. It does not state PT Not Authorized. If you activate the approach at DUCER it will give you the hold as published, i.e. 4nm at 2600. What you do with that hold, i.e. fly it for course reversal or to lose alt or both or delete it if don’t need it, is up to you. If approaching from the west you most likely will need it for course reversal. From the east most likely not for course reversal but maybe to lose altitude. If you don’t need to fly around the hold it can be deleted on flight plan page. 
Now, because DUCER is an IF/IAF, if atc clears for the approach prior to reaching the fix they expect one circuit around the hold for purposes of course reversal. If need more circuits to lose altitude for example, must tell them so. 
 

So under what circumstances does the NoPT apply?

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

No. Activating the approach at DUCER from any direction will give you the hold. It may ask you if you want it depending on which direction you are approaching. What you do with it is your choice according to what you need. Course reversal, lose altitude, both or neither. If you don’t need it you can delete it. It is merely a hold for any of those purposes. It does not say PT NA.

The simulator, which I believe contains the same programming code as the actual unit, did not give the option regardless of direction. In each case it went directly into the hold.

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I think I see the problem. It defaulted the transition as vectors (I should have changed it to DUCER) when I input the procedure.

a9087822a878ee99eeabe9dd5ce859d6.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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59 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

So under what circumstances does the NoPT apply?

When approaching from the east within the 005-185 sector of the TAA it says NoPT as shown. This precludes you from performing the pt without communicating with atc first. 

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1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

The simulator, which I believe contains the same programming code as the actual unit, did not give the option regardless of direction. In each case it went directly into the hold.

When approaching from the east within the 005-185 sector the GTN will ask you if want the course reversal. This is to help you in case you need to fly the hold for some reason. It does not however override what’s published on the plate. When approaching from the east within the 005-185 sector it states No PT. You cannot fly pt without communicating with atc. 

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Just now, PTK said:

When approaching from the east within the 005-185 sector it will ask you if want the course reversal. This is to help you on case you need to fly the hold for some reason. It does not however override what’s published on the plate. When approaching from the east within the 005-185 sector it states No PT. You cannot fly pt without communicating with atc. 

Again, the simulator did not ask, it went directly into the hold.

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30 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Again, the simulator did not ask, it went directly into the hold.

I haven’t put this in the simulator so I don’t know what you’re looking at. I will do so when I get a chance. But regardless what the simulator or the unit does you cannot follow it blindly. The published plate takes priority.

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3 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

The simulator, which I believe contains the same programming code as the actual unit, did not give the option regardless of direction. In each case it went directly into the hold.

It should not do that. Coming from in from the east is a NoPT sector within 30 NM of DUCER. So it should give you the option, which it does.

image.png.309b56b6982626588c6c0c900317deca.pngimage.png.032715e7229a622a6fc1633652d788b5.png

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On 2/14/2020 at 9:27 AM, tigers2007 said:

I think I see the problem. It defaulted the transition as vectors (I should have changed it to DUCER) when I input the procedure.

a9087822a878ee99eeabe9dd5ce859d6.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That will do it. Keep in mind it always defaults to Vectors.  My SOP is to pull out the chart and brief the approach before entering it into the box. The situational awareness provided by the Plan View and selecting an appropriate transition is as important a part of the briefing to me as "the numbers." Maybe more.

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Let’s get clear what option we are talking about.  GPS’s may query whether you want to fly the procedure turn (“course reversal”) or not.  But that does not mean it is an option for you if you are on a clearance, allowing you to just pick one or the other to fly.  In this instance, one TAA does not state “NoPT” and one does. If you approach in the TAA that says nothing, then ATC expects you to fly the procedure turn unless instructed otherwise.  If you approach in the TAA that says NoPT, then you are expected not to fly the procedure turn.  Complicating this, is local practice by the controllers and the fact that not all controllers know that this is the rule.  It is best, when flying an RNAV, to tell the controller what you intend to do, and this generally requires a little judgment. If you are in the NoPT TAA, then I would not hesitate to fly the approach with NoPT without telling that to the controller.  But if you are in the TAA that says nothing, it is always a good idea to announce.  Where they get irritated with you, is if they have another aircraft coming in on an IFR plan, they (the controller) for whatever reason were spaced out on the fact that you are required to fly the turn, and then you do, which means they have to do something with the other aircraft. 

I have not seen an approach that says “PT NA,” the reference is usually that the Procedure is NA for arrivals at a particular IAF from a specified course or direction. 

 Whether the GPS gives you the procedure turn as an option or not, has no bearing on your obligation to follow what is on the plate. Controllers make mistakes, but so do we, they pick us up and we pick them up.  Cover both of your tails and let them know what you intend.

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2 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Let’s get clear what option we are talking about.  GPS’s may query whether you want to fly the procedure turn (“course reversal”) or not. ..

This was an excellent response to the issue. And to reiterate what John stated, I always ask the controller for confirmation whether s/he wants me to fly the course reversal/procedure turn or head straight in. It takes little energy and once I even got a "thank you" for asking.

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