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Own a 1977 PA-28-140, Buy a M20C??


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Hello all!

I currently own a 1977 Piper 140 with very low time as far as 140's go.  I just flew my 140 from KSEE to KHXD and only burned 1/2 of a quart of oil for the entire trip. The plane needs paint, but the original interior is in excellent condition 9 out of 10, with the original 1977 avionics. Where I going with this is.., I'm thinking of selling it and buying a 68 M20C. My plane needs paint and an avionics upgrade, so I'm looking at some big $$$ depending on how big I want to go on the avionics. Or, do I sell my plane and buy a Mooney? I could easily get $30,000+ for my 140 due to the low hours, TT3308 and Engine is TSO 984. All of my flying has been VFR cross-country time, that's why I'm thinking of selling my 140 and buying a 68 M20C. My flight hrs., I'm just under 300 hrs last I checked.  Where I need your advice is, I'm at the beginning of my IFR training (12-15hrs in) and wanted to know your thoughts on using a Mooney to continue with my IFR.  My 140 needs the upgrade to do IFR, the Mooney I can buy for $38,000 only needs one radio and something with the "wing leveler" needs to be looked at, it goes on unless you pull the button out. Not sure what that's all about, but I'm guessing some of you will. Have any of you done IFR training in a Mooney? Is it better to stay with a slower plane until I get my IFR? I would guess I'm looking at $15-20,000 to upgrade the 140. Is it worth upgrading or just put the $10,000 into the Mooney?  UGH!! lol  Please help me, Mooney Lovers!   Thank you all for your time!

Edited by Casey020
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38 grand will get you a vfr mooney. Spend the extra cash right away and get something ifr. Id personally recommend the M20E. Fuel injected is a lot nicer and allows lop operations. 

 

Edit: however we live an era where you can install a full ifr panel for under 25k. Gnc355, a par200b, and dual g5s is a really nice setup.

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Welcome aboard, Casey.

Airplane economics work the same way no matter which brand you buy...

Get the most capable plane to match your budget...

Follow Niko’s example above... :)

Train for the IR any way you can... it makes the most sense to train in the Mooney you will own...

At no time will it make sense to fly a slower plane...  with a Mooney they have a special knob that allows it to fly as slow as a Piper...

There are other planes that Mooniacs fly for low and slow... so don’t get me too far out of line.... :)

Wing levelers are cool... but, if not working, it could be simple or exasperating...

A most capable nav com makes things worthwhile... look for a WAAS capable nav com gps... if possible.  Getting one installed takes your lunch money... for a year!

So... to answer your question... yes, it’s worth it...

Go Mooney!

Feel free to post pics of your now X-plane...

Best regards,

-a-

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Casey,
I was in almost your exact position about a year ago. I had a nice 1974 Cherokee 140/160 that was technically IFR but didn’t have a GPS and wouldn’t allow for modern day IFR training. I also started with the same thought on all the Mooney M20Cs our there that hover around $40,000 asking price. I sold my Cherokee and spent several months looking for a replacement airplane. What I found was that you need to be very cautious of any C model under $40K unless you have a good maintenance budget saved up ($10k+). I’m not saying there aren’t a few out there that won’t require any additional maintenance, there’s just a lot that will. I’m not talking about cosmetics like paint/ interior either. I’m talking corrosion, electronics, outdated airworthy maintenance items, old overhauls, etc. One thing that would help is determining your budget. Is $38,000 where you want to stay or could you get closer to $50,000? What I found is most well maintained airframes that have a functional IFR panel and at least a 430W are likely to cost closer to $50,000+ depending on overhaul date and engine time. One thing I found a lot of were old overhauls (over 20 years old, I even found one from the 1970s). A good sweet spot is an airplane that had an overhaul in the last 7 or so years and has around 500-600 hours on the engine.

I suppose to get to your question about IFR platform, I’m not IR yet but am planning on it very soon. It’s a much more stable platform and I think easier to land than the Cherokee (increased control force) once you learn the difference in energy management. I have flown a couple times with a friend on IFR flights and it seems awesome and stable. I wanted to spend some time to allow all flight procedures to become second nature before starting my IR and am glad I have. I don’t think mixing IFR training and learning a new airplane at the same time would be as easy but we all have different capabilities.


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One other thought, all the pricing I mentioned was for a C model. If you go E model you may as well figure at least $10,000 more than a comparable C model. This is a decision for you to make on budget but from all I’ve read the performance and fuel burn differences are negligible when considering the cost difference. Also, once you go fuel injected the cylinders are almost double the cost if you have to replace one or price an overhaul. Otherwise, E models are awesome too, just depends on your mission and budget.


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You situation sounds similar to mine also.  I was flying a 1/4 share of a 68 cherokee 140 but wanted an instrument platform that.  My old 140 was VFR only.  It would take an investment of what the plane was worth to get a basic IFR panel.  When I bought in we had all agreed that we would eventually sell and buy a new plane that was instrument rated instead of upgrading.  After a few years, half of the crew backed out and so me and one other guy found a 75 E model that we would buy becuase it's a "good deal."  Your post reads like you have found a 'good deal' too and I want to caution you on what a 'good deal' really is.  We bought a 75 E model from a guy on the field who hadn't flown in a while.  He just wanted the plane gone becuase he had lost his medical and his grandson didn't want the plane.  It appeared to be well taken care of despite sitting, it recently had new windows installed, the engine was run regularly even if it wasn't flown, and my A&P was the same guy maintaining the plane and recommended it.  We did a pre-buy and all checked ok so be bought her.  In year 1 we had to replace the ADI that failed within the first couple of hours after the papers were signed.  In year two, we had to reseal the tanks which had developed a nasty leak becuase she sat with mostly empty tanks and the sun had dried out the sealant.  We also had to do the shock discs at the same time to protect the new tanks.  In year three, we are currently working on an engine overhaul.  We knew the engine was high time, but it had just been torn down for prop strike inspection less than 500hrs ago, so we were hoping for another 1000-1500hrs before this point.  We only got about 200.  I bought with what I thought was a pretty nice IFR panel only to realize in this day and age, if you don't have GPS, your SOL.  I struggled to find instructors that even understood VOR to VOR only kinda flying.  My IFR training also hit a snag when I couldn't legally file into my own home airport becuase I didn't have an ADF.  That one is a frustrating story, becuase I had the antenna removed when we installed a G5 to replace the analog ADI.  I did it thinking, no one uses ADF anymore, sure go ahead and take it out and BOOM, no longer legal to file my home drome since the only approach is ADF required.

Now that I've said all the doom and gloom, here is the good news.  For a cross country, I burn less gas in the mooney than I did in my cherokee.  Sure, the fuel burn is significantly higher than the cherokee, but it's also significantly faster.  One of my reuglar trips is to my parents house in Georgia.  It took me about 2 hours in the cherokee at about 14-16 gallons.  The mooney is just above an hour at a fuel burn of about 13-15gallons.  I love my plane and while she is down for overhaul, we are also upgrading the panel.  My recommendation, however, is to figure out your mission, figure out your budget, and find a plane that matches both.  And when you are looking, don't find a "budget" plane.  They can eat your lunch.  In terms of aviation, budget means poorly equipped.  Well equipped and budget tyically means something is wrong.  Not always, there are some unicorns out there, but caveat emptor my friend. 

I would highly recommend a mooney, but I would recommend againt buying a plane that you know has problems.  Those are the problem you know about.  If an owner allowed that to happen, what else did they neglect and allow to happen?  Just sayin'.

Sorry for the wall of text. :) 

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I did the PPL in a cherokee 180, flew for a couple year and bought a mooney.  After owning the mooney a year or so, I started my IR.  I think using the mooney for the instrument training was a smart move.  You learn all the speeds and power setting for the plane you'll actually be using.  I'd be a little leery in your situation though.  You have a solid plane that you know well.  You're buying a mooney that is an unknown.  I'd hate for you to delay your training if something developed in a new plane.  Although it's possible in your 140, I think it's less likely since you know its history better.

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Buy the best condition Mooney you can find, with an IFR GPS in it. C, E, F, doesn't matter. Fly it for a year, learn its ins and outs, then start IFR training. I did that with my C, it's a wonderful, stable platform.

If the wing leveler holds the wings level, then it's working properly. It is designed to be on all the time, except while holding thst little button down with your left thumb (helpful for maneuvering). Affer the first several months, I just quit bothering with the button, overriding it is not difficult or dangerous, and doesn't hurt the unit..

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I bought my first Mooney with 1900 hours on the engine, for a deal.  My mentor/flight instructor told me my best deal would be buy one with high engine time, don't pay for engine time YOU THINK you're going to get, and then not get it.  We did a pre-purchase inspection.  It looked pretty good and the compression's were decent.  I immediately started my IFR training in it, lost no time to maintenance issues, and flew if for a few years before finding metal in the filter at exactly 2400 hours.  I got 500 hours of engine time for free.  I sold that plane with 850 hours on a Lycoming factory OH, and had I changed out the engine at time of purchase, the new engine would have been at 1350 hours (past the half way point to TBO).

Don't be afraid of a high time engine.  Just make sure you are not paying for useful engine time in the price either.  And if you do buy with low to medium engine time...... cross your fingers you're not paying for engine life you may not get.

Tom

 

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Casey, not enough data.  If your 140 has dual navcoms, it would make a fine platform to do your IFR training in.  The "needs another radio" in the C model you have found along with "something about the wing leveler" could also set you back 15K.  I feel that the simpler the avionics is, as long as it meets the IFR requirements, the easier the check ride will be.  If you have  more sophisticated avionics , the DPE will add that complexity to your IFR test ride.  Master IFR in the 140. then run to the Mooney that meets your needs.

 

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Is no one else concerned that he took a 15 hour flight from one side of the country to the other and only burned 1/2 quart of oil?  That's an oil burn rate of 1 quart every 30 hours.  It's my understanding that aircraft engines are meant to use oil, it's what keeps the cylinders lubricated.  If you aren't burning enough oil you are going to be in for a top end overhaul soon.  I've been told that anything less than a quart every 12-15 hours is concerning.

As for whether to upgrade the 140 or buy a Mooney, I don't think you will get your money back out of upgrading the 140.  The extra money toward the Mooney will hold it's value much better.

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It was 18.6 total engine run time and I kept it full to 8 quarts. It was new oil when I started the trip and I changed the after 21.5 hrs. The old oil and filter were good and nothing in the oil. 

3 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

Is no one else concerned that he took a 15 hour flight from one side of the country to the other and only burned 1/2 quart of oil?  That's an oil burn rate of 1 quart every 30 hours.  It's my understanding that aircraft engines are meant to use oil, it's what keeps the cylinders lubricated.  If you aren't burning enough oil you are going to be in for a top end overhaul soon.  I've been told that anything less than a quart every 12-15 hours is concerning.

As for whether to upgrade the 140 or buy a Mooney, I don't think you will get your money back out of upgrading the 140.  The extra money toward the Mooney will hold it's value much better.

 

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If your eye is already wandering to other planes I would definitely not sink another $20,000 into your Cherokee. Sounds like a change is more of a question of when than if.

Also wouldn’t hurt to call All-American Aircraft in Texas to learn more about the market and get on their vintage short-body mailing list...  @jgarrison

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I'm in a similar situation, except I don't own an airplane yet.

I can get a really well cared for lower total time 1974 Cherokee 140/160 with dual nav coms, DME an MFD with new paint and interior and a 250 hour Zephyr overhaul for $37.5K. It's the nicest overall 140 I think I've ever seen and has quite a few speed mods as well. It's also ADSB compliant.

The other plane I'm interested in is an early E model M20, with good, newish paint and interior and a mid-time engine, but with old electronics and no ADSB. The owner wants $50K.

I can't decide between the two. I'm a low time pilot and don't really have a mission per se yet. But the attraction of "buying your last airplane first" is there.

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3 hours ago, mizer2167 said:

I'm in a similar situation, except I don't own an airplane yet.

I can get a really well cared for lower total time 1974 Cherokee 140/160 with dual nav coms, DME an MFD with new paint and interior and a 250 hour Zephyr overhaul for $37.5K. It's the nicest overall 140 I think I've ever seen and has quite a few speed mods as well. It's also ADSB compliant.

The other plane I'm interested in is an early E model M20, with good, newish paint and interior and a mid-time engine, but with old electronics and no ADSB. The owner wants $50K.

I can't decide between the two. I'm a low time pilot and don't really have a mission per se yet. But the attraction of "buying your last airplane first" is there.

Well, I bought my very nice 1977 140on  01-07-20 and have already sold it, thanks to the advice of those in this post, and purchased the Mooney!! As ZuLuZuLu said above, my eye was already wandering. I sold the 140 for more than I paid. The market is going up fast! Planes in good condition can bring in some good money. I have a lot of time in 140's and I had zero time in Mooneys until flying the one I just bought. Both my 140 and the new Mooney (68 M20C) need upgrades. The Mooney deserves the upgrades, I feel, because it's a better plane and I can justify putting money into it. I couldn't with the 140, because I already knew I was going to sell it when I bought it. The Mooney just fell into my lap and, so I sold the 140 WAY faster then I thought I was going to, but because of how much more I sold it for it was a no brainer. So, the Mooney is the one you should buy! lol  Get some training in it when you buy it, it's very easy to fly and way more stable than the 140. The seller of my Mooney is flying with me and giving me the experience I need. If you haven't been in a Mooney yet but have flown a 140, get a ride and fly one and you'll understand!  Best of luck!!   Also, ask the guys/gals on here if the one you're looking at is priced right and that will help you make up your mind. In the long run, it's easier to sell a upgraded Mooney for $100,000 than an upgraded 140 for $100,000! 

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Thank you to everyone on here!! I sold the 140 and traded up to my new '68 M20C Mooney!!! Notice in the background as I took the pic! It's a sign!! haha  I blocked out the tail # only because the deal isn't 100% done, I want all of the ink on the paperwork to dry first, then I'll show it off in a different post.  lol 

The 140 pic is the one I sold to step up into the Mooney. That's it in CA the day before I flew it to KSAV. The 140 needed paint and a panel upgrade and the Mooney only needs a WAAS GPS.

I'll post pics of the Mooney's panel after the upgrade that is already scheduled.  Thanx again everyone!!!

New Mooney.jpg

IMG_0650.jpg

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3 hours ago, Casey020 said:

Thank you to everyone on here!! I sold the 140 and traded up to my new '68 M20C Mooney!!! Notice in the background as I took the pic! It's a sign!! haha  I blocked out the tail # only because the deal isn't 100% done, I want all of the ink on the paperwork to dry first, then I'll show it off in a different post.  lol 

The 140 pic is the one I sold to step up into the Mooney. That's it in CA the day before I flew it to KSAV. The 140 needed paint and a panel upgrade and the Mooney only needs a WAAS GPS.

I'll post pics of the Mooney's panel after the upgrade that is already scheduled.  Thanx again everyone!!!

 

Congrats on the new bird!

I've never had a chance to fly a Mooney. Would be easier to make a decision if I could get a few hours in, but it's not something typically available on a rental line. It's hard to imagine something more stable than a Cherokee though.

Most of my time is in PA28's. The insurance quote on the M20 in my situation with low time and little retract time isn't great, but it's still 30% less expensive than the C33 I had my eye on. Lower insurance and potentially maintenance are the two things that to me are an advantage to the PA28's.

Edited by mizer2167
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4 hours ago, mizer2167 said:

Congrats on the new bird!

I've never had a chance to fly a Mooney. Would be easier to make a decision if I could get a few hours in, but it's not something typically available on a rental line. It's hard to imagine something more stable than a Cherokee though.

Most of my time is in PA28's. The insurance quote on the M20 in my situation with low time and little retract time isn't great, but it's still 30% less expensive than the C33 I had my eye on. Lower insurance and potentially maintenance are the two things that to me are an advantage to the PA28's.

Ask on here for a ride. I see it's a thing! lol. Just make a post, say where you're at and boom, you'll be in a Mooney!

 

I was with you about the lower money for a Cherokee, but I bought my 140 knowing I was going to sell it and move up, I just didn't think it would happen so fast.  If the only thing, after you get a ride in a Mooney, is you want to spend less, buy the Cherokee.

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On 2/13/2020 at 7:49 AM, Yooper Rocketman said:

Don't be afraid of a high time engine.  Just make sure you are not paying for useful engine time in the price either.  And if you do buy with low to medium engine time...... cross your fingers you're not paying for engine life you may not get.

Tom

 

Agreed, my rule of thumb is at 85% of TBO the engine has no resale value, and may or may not have useful life left.  Everything you get is a bonus.

Problem is most sellers see it the other way, and say there is a good 500 hours left.

Don

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1 hour ago, Casey020 said:

Ask on here for a ride. I see it's a thing! lol. Just make a post, say where you're at and boom, you'll be in a Mooney!

 

I was with you about the lower money for a Cherokee, but I bought my 140 knowing I was going to sell it and move up, I just didn't think it would happen so fast.  If the only thing, after you get a ride in a Mooney, is you want to spend less, buy the Cherokee.

I'm planning on making the next fly-in with the FL regional Mooney group when it's nearby (KBOW, KOCF or similar) as long as the weather is VFR.

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