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Do all your fasteners on the top cowl have retainer washers on them? I find it impossible to remove it unless the three in the pic can be removed. Am I doing it wrong? 

0EAED401-35CB-44DC-B580-3DC9B5AD606E.jpeg

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Yes, I have the big washers even at the two by the spinner.

 

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I have big washers only on the 4 behind the spinner that Lynn put on because they were starting to wear through with vibration 

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I guess what I'm trying to say is, the camlocks have retainer washers on the inside of the cowl

so they don't fall out. If I can't fully remove them it's a total pain to remove the top cowl. Twice

I've had work done and the mechanics put the retainer washers on them and I wanted

to scratch my eyes out.

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3 minutes ago, Joe Larussa said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the camlocks have retainer washers on the inside of the cowl

so they don't fall out. If I can't fully remove them it's a total pain to remove the top cowl. Twice

I've had work done and the mechanics put the retainer washers on them and I wanted

to scratch my eyes out.

Several of mine don't have the retainer washers and fall out when I unlatch them.   The rest stay in like they're supposed to.   Neither prevent me from removing the cowl.   I think I don't understand the problem.

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Problem is if I can't fully remove the six camlocks at the spinner I can't remove the top cowl.

They hang up and I'm afraid of jacking up the cowl. 

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4 hours ago, Joe Larussa said:

Problem is if I can't fully remove the six camlocks at the spinner I can't remove the top cowl.

They hang up and I'm afraid of jacking up the cowl. 

Sometimes when they hang up it's because the little tiny piece that makes the cross in the T on the catch has become loose and will slide too far to one side.   When that happens they can become very difficult to remove.   I keep spares around and if the T-cross gets loose or has too much lateral play I replace it before it becomes a problem.   Don't know whether that's your issue, but it might be something to check.

FWIW, on my airplane the four fasteners at the spinner are screws with nut plates.   I have to keep them snug, but if I do they're fine, and they won't get stuck like the camlocs do when the T gets loose.

 

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have a look at the skybolt website. They have an alternate suggestion of using small split washer to retain the camlock loosely within the hole, but still allowing it to move and let the cowls actually come apart.

 

https://skybolt.com/portfolio/mooney/

 

They are very nice fasteners, just oversized enough to fit worn holes nicely. I bought a bunch to put on mine when it returns from minor surgery.

 

Here are the instruction showing use of the washers.

 

http://skybolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Mooney-Instructions.pdf

 

iain

Edited by milotron
added instruction link
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None of my cowl fasteners at the parting line   have retainers, you simply turn them a quarter turn and then remove them from the hole. The Top comes off  easily, so maybe remove the retainers for those 2700 series fasteners. 

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The issue is that the fiberglass holes get bigger over time. 
Sometimes the small retainers have been replaced with larger retainers (makes the cowling camlocks not pull out completely and the cowling tough to remove)

sometimes the retainers have been removed all together , makes the cowling very easy to remove but you need to keep track of what camlock goes where since they may have different reach 

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On 2/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, Joe Larussa said:

Do all your fasteners on the top cowl have retainer washers on them? I find it impossible to remove it unless the three in the pic can be removed. Am I doing it wrong? 

0EAED401-35CB-44DC-B580-3DC9B5AD606E.jpeg

Per the parts catalog those 6 fasteners should be AN526 machine screws that screw into a nutplate. They should come all the way out for cowl removal.

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I replaced the camlocs with skybolts version. I didn't replace the retaining washers. 

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1 minute ago, rbridges said:

I replaced the camlocs with skybolts version. I didn't replace the retaining washers. 

Are you happy with the result? Do they fit flush with the cowl like the originals did? Is there any downside, other than cost?

 

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Are you happy with the result? Do they fit flush with the cowl like the originals did? Is there any downside, other than cost?
 

I don’t have a good picture, but they fit beautifully (I only replaced the side camlocs, not the ones with the washers).
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1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

Are you happy with the result? Do they fit flush with the cowl like the originals did? Is there any downside, other than cost?

 

I like them. I had to order longer ones than the ones I replaced. Since they had wider flanges, they didn't sink into the worn areas.  Obviously, you see the metal flanges, and this could be bothersome if you're OCD, but I like the end result. 

Edited by rbridges

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2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

Are you happy with the result? Do they fit flush with the cowl like the originals did? Is there any downside, other than cost?

 

 

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On 2/11/2020 at 2:23 PM, Joe Larussa said:

Problem is if I can't fully remove the six camlocks at the spinner I can't remove the top cowl.

They hang up and I'm afraid of jacking up the cowl. 

I think what you're saying is you want to be able to completely remove the camloc's when you're opening the cowl?

There are a couple reasons it's good to have the split retaining washers.  One, if you forget to fasten one, you won't lose it.  Two, and more importantly, is that the camlocs will be of different lengths, so if you have a cup full of camlocs, you're gonna have a tough time remembering which goes where.  Yes, I know they started out as -7's and -4's, but over time as the holes wear, I'm sure a couple have been replaced with -3's and 6's...

That being said, You should be able to remove the cowl without removing the fasteners.  Just pull out the top cowl away from the seam with the bottom cowl as you lift it.  Start at the back and work your way forwards, and they should all pop out of the receptacles on the bottom cowl.  It's important to start at the back because the front ones are the hardest due to the curvature (which is why the most forward is a screw instead of a camloc), but if you work your fingers under the edge of top cowl, it should be easily doable.  I can remove the top cowl by myself undoing the each side in turn before lifting it off.

Okay, now I read your OP a little more closely.  Are you saying you have camlocs in that most forward position?  That should not be the case.  The two near the spinner and the forward most fastener on each side should all be screws, right?

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Those screws and large bent washers were standard when my ‘94 O was born...

With all the high end cam locks it has.... these might have a reason to still be there?

It may look like somebody subbed in some odd hardware, but mine is original... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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14 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I think what you're saying is you want to be able to completely remove the camloc's when you're opening the cowl?

There are a couple reasons it's good to have the split retaining washers.  One, if you forget to fasten one, you won't lose it.  Two, and more importantly, is that the camlocs will be of different lengths, so if you have a cup full of camlocs, you're gonna have a tough time remembering which goes where.  Yes, I know they started out as -7's and -4's, but over time as the holes wear, I'm sure a couple have been replaced with -3's and 6's...

That being said, You should be able to remove the cowl without removing the fasteners.  Just pull out the top cowl away from the seam with the bottom cowl as you lift it.  Start at the back and work your way forwards, and they should all pop out of the receptacles on the bottom cowl.  It's important to start at the back because the front ones are the hardest due to the curvature (which is why the most forward is a screw instead of a camloc), but if you work your fingers under the edge of top cowl, it should be easily doable.  I can remove the top cowl by myself undoing the each side in turn before lifting it off.

Okay, now I read your OP a little more closely.  Are you saying you have camlocs in that most forward position?  That should not be the case.  The two near the spinner and the forward most fastener on each side should all be screws, right?

They are all cam-locks, no screws. I like the screw idea though. Mine were removable cam-locks at the nose. When the painters

put the new cam-locks in I had a hell of a time removing the cowl. Not to mention, I was afraid of jacking up my new paint job!

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On 2/11/2020 at 4:23 PM, Joe Larussa said:

Problem is if I can't fully remove the six camlocks at the spinner I can't remove the top cowl.

They hang up and I'm afraid of jacking up the cowl. 

I dont have retainers on any of mine.  I just pull ALL of them out and the top cowl comes off very easily...

I would like to replace them all, but finding stainless ones is tricky.  They come in a lot of sizes/lengths and they are sort of expensive.

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10 hours ago, Joe Larussa said:

They are all cam-locks, no screws. I like the screw idea though. Mine were removable cam-locks at the nose. When the painters

put the new cam-locks in I had a hell of a time removing the cowl. Not to mention, I was afraid of jacking up my new paint job!

Oooooooooooh, I see what's going on.  The reason they don't use the camloc's in those very forward holes is because of the tight curvature.  All the rearward holes have much less curvature, so it's easy create enough space to clear the camloc's while they are still retained.

I'd suggest taking the retainers off only the two forward holes, that way you don't have to worry about losing more than just those two.  It's easily removable with all the other camlocs retained.

Do you have camloc's on the two holes inside the cowl inlet near the spinner?  How did they fit receptacles inside that space?

Otherwise, you could get your mechanic to install the appropriate nutplates in the forward hole and the two in the inlet, which is the way it came from the factory.

9 hours ago, Austintatious said:

I dont have retainers on any of mine.  I just pull ALL of them out and the top cowl comes off very easily...

I would like to replace them all, but finding stainless ones is tricky.  They come in a lot of sizes/lengths and they are sort of expensive.

IIRC, replacing all side fasteners with Skybolt equivalents ended up being less than $150.  It was more the pain of ordering some extras lengths and taking the cowl on and off that was expensive...

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11 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

 

IIRC, replacing all side fasteners with Skybolt equivalents ended up being less than $150.  It was more the pain of ordering some extras lengths and taking the cowl on and off that was expensive...

I had to reorder a few because they ended up being too short.  I think I'm using all 6 and 8 now, up from the 4 and 6 from previous.

Edited by rbridges

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I had to reorder a few because they ended up being too short.  I think I'm using all 6 and 8 now, up from the 4 and 6 from previous.

I use 4 on the side expect the corners:
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