Helicopter Stall

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Gagarin said:

I just read from the NTSB report that this helicopter didn't have any form of Terrain Awareness equipment.

It was not equipped with TAWS. News said it had terrain warning on the GPS, like on my G430W.

[Yetti]

18 hours ago, EricJ said:

There's apparently a LOT of rotational inertia and energy in a Huey rotor system.    A guy that used to race with us bought a Huey that had the mast fail after fatigue due to mast bumping.   The rotor separated and beat the airframe apart in flight pretty severely.  I spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out the dynamics of how that all happened from the accident pics and analysis, but it was extremely energetic and violent.   Witnesses said it essentially exploded in the air.

It was pretty much a story of how not to do things.   Those of us who knew him were not overly surprised.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20130921X71327&ntsbno=WPR13FA417&akey=1

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20130921X71327&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

I don't know what the potential failure modes on the Sikorsky S-76 flight system, but it's clear that things can go catastrophic in a short period of time with that much energy involved.   If things gets pushed outside the envelope a bit too much due to maneuvering or a failure or whatever it's easy to see that it could go very bad very quickly.

Well that resulted in How much do UH-1s cost.  What is mast bumping youtube watch session followed by a couple of dynamic rollover watch session.   Coupled with what is the point of spending a half million dollars if you are not going to maintain it. Along with 3 hours of maint to one hour of flight time for a Huey WOW. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Yetti

[cogboxer]

Seems like it was most likely disorientation when he'd climbed and turned near the end. This video is pretty good if you haven't seen it. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Well that resulted in How much do UH-1s cost.  What is mast bumping youtube watch session followed by a couple of dynamic rollover watch session.   Coupled with what is the point of spending a half million dollars if you are not going to maintain it. Along with 3 hours of maint to one hour of flight time for a Huey WOW. 

I highly doubt he paid a half-million for it.   That would have been a bit out of character, imho.   When he bought it it had been a static display in a museum for many years so he probably got it for much, much less than that.   

[MooneyMitch]

Extremely chilling simulation video.  

Living in the area as a youth, and being intimately familiar with all areas, including the crash area, it’s bone shaking.  

It all seems so unnecessary. 

[0TreeLemur]

I've done a lot of riding in helicopters in the tropics, in low ceilings and mountainous terrain.   I have seen helicopter pilots become disoriented when they can only see the ground directly below them with 0 forward visibility.   Their head is swiveling, and it becomes too much.

Not mentioning special VFR, when we lose forward visibility, we know we are high enough to not hit anything.   Helo pilots trying to get around down low don't have that luxury so they can get nervous (I do too as a pax). 

The ground scar and debris path indicate to me a sudden appearance of terrain and failure to turn in time for the forward speed of the machine.   The pressure to complete the flight after a 15 minute hold and VIP pax must have been intense.   It was only about 10 more miles to their destination as I understand it.

Such a tragedy.  Failure on so many levels.   

p.s. I HATE helicopters.  Almost been killed by them twice (that I know of).

[Gagarin]

Excellent video Cogboxer. It looks to me the Helicopter may not even had GPS Navigation or TAWS. Why not cimb and go direct instead of following the road in the clouds. Was this pilot at least IFR rated?

[MooneyMitch]

Pondering further..... is it too remote to think the pilot experienced a major medical episode?  

The autopsy would probably be able to reveal that ? 

 

[ilovecornfields]

I’m guessing it wasn’t a medical problem. Sounds more like the infamous “VFR into IMC.” According to this article they weren’t allowed (or equipped?) to fly IFR. Those last few minutes must have been horrible for the pilot when he realized just what an bad situation he got himself into.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/29/pilot-in-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-wasnt-allowed-to-fly-by-instruments/amp/

Edited January 30, 2020 by ilovecornfields

[gsxrpilot]

The pilot was an 8000+ hour CFII in helicopters. I'm guessing he probably could have made this maximum performance climbing turn in IMC 8 out of 10 times. But this was unfortunately one of those times he couldn't.

The helicopter and the pilot would have been part 135.

[MooneyMitch]

The article is Interesting, of course.

Possibly I missed this, but I didn’t read anything stating the helicopter didn’t have equipment for flying on instruments.  I did read that it was prohibited from flying on instruments.

What is the required equipment for instrument flight?  Altimeter, artificial horizon, airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator one navigational radio, etc.?  Isn’t it likely those instruments were in the Sikorsky?  It’s been a longtime since I passed my IFR written test ( never got the rating) and I don’t recall the specific instruments required.

i understand an aircraft not being certified for IFR, but isn’t that different than having the required instruments?..... just not certified? 

The article stated that the pilot was an helicopter instrument instructor.  Is it possible to become an instrument instructor without having actual IMC experience?

Also when Deetz says he’s “guessing”, that’s what we’re doing in this thread....... and guessing is not factual.

So very tragic.

[ilovecornfields]

Until the NTSB final report comes out it’s all “guessing.” I don’t think that report will be out for a while...

I didn’t mean to imply that the helicopter lacked the instrumentation for IFR flight. The question mark was supposed to indicate that I don’t know what they had or needed. They were part 135 and single pilot so the required equipment is more complicated than the items you memorized for your instrument written.
I thought this article was informative regarding those requirements:

https://www.us-ppl.de/pdf/faa/hb/instr/appndxC1.pdf

I guess my bottom line, based on what we know now, is that this tragedy was most likely poor decision-making which ultimately resulted in VFR into IMC and loss of control. Maybe there was a medical emergency or some system malfunction but I think that’s much less likely. I just think it’s sad and regrettable that we seem to be making the same mistakes over and over again, often resulting in loss of life. Especially with passengers on board.

[ChrisV]

6 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Is it possible to become an instrument instructor without having actual IMC experience?

Yes.  I didn't have any heli actual IMC when I got my heli IR. 

[ChrisV]

In my experience, helicopters are poor at flying instruments, mainly because it is a lot harder.  Helis are unstable and it doesn't look like this one had any autopilot to help.  IMO heli pilots don't train enough because it is so challenging, and expensive. 

And instructing instrument students is no substitute for flying instruments.  Not even close.

[Ibra]

14 hours ago, Gagarin said:

Why not cimb and go direct instead of following the road in the clouds. Was this pilot at least IFR rated?

I don't think having an IFR rating in itself is a relevant skill to be able to fly near terrain bellow sector altitude but it may explain why they were flying low?

One can elect to fly low for various reasons: risk of low icing/IMC, no quick clearance, airspace, VFR only Ops/Heli, take direct shortcut, density altitude, cloud-break to a nearby instrument airfield...but near terrain you do get mentally swamped with altitude/heading changes after flying for few minutes, if we talk about personal limits: 10min of flying near mountains on sunny days is a lot and most of us would get tired of keeping wing level in bumpy IMC after 30min, so say max 5min combined before one losing it SVFR on fixed wings? not sure about helicopters ops but this one was flying for 40min low/fast close to terrain (due to planning errors?) then sadly one tactical error 10nm from destination

SVFR is better kept as one-off wildcard: quick airspace transit or landing in my familiar home airfield (directly of after instrument approach nearby), if I have to ask for it many times to cross various zones while going cross-country A to B, then probably it is not good idea compared to climb in IMC (for IFR rated on clearance) or backtrack/land otherwise, also TAWS/SV/terrain warnings and autopilot don't help neither for that kind of flying, try 2min of low level VFR sightseeing 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Ibra

[MooneyMitch]

3 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Until the NTSB final report comes out it’s all “guessing.” I don’t think that report will be out for a while...

I didn’t mean to imply that the helicopter lacked the instrumentation for IFR flight. The question mark was supposed to indicate that I don’t know what they had or needed. They were part 135 and single pilot so the required equipment is more complicated than the items you memorized for your instrument written.
I thought this article was informative regarding those requirements:

https://www.us-ppl.de/pdf/faa/hb/instr/appndxC1.pdf

I guess my bottom line, based on what we know now, is that this tragedy was most likely poor decision-making which ultimately resulted in VFR into IMC and loss of control. Maybe there was a medical emergency or some system malfunction but I think that’s much less likely. I just think it’s sad and regrettable that we seem to be making the same mistakes over and over again, often resulting in loss of life. Especially with passengers on board.

Thanks for that article.  

Yes, VFR into IMC appears to be the story, encompassing tragically poor decision making.  Scud running comes to mind.  Darn it.

Just throwing out other possibilities, trying to make sense of it all.

Seriously, one does not need actual to become a Heli instrument flight instructor? 

[MooneyMitch]

I apologize for not creating this thread under the safety and accident category.

My initial thought was helicopter stall only.  However, I myself quickly turned all in another direction.

I am appreciating all the input.

[WilliamR]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Seriously, one does not need actual to become a Heli instrument flight instructor? 

FYI, you don't need any actual instrument time for any instrument rating, regular or CFII.  See CFRs 61.65 (d) for just the instrument rating and 61.183 for instructor requirements. 

 

William

[MooneyMitch]

4 minutes ago, WilliamR said:

FYI, you don't need any actual instrument time for any instrument rating, regular or CFII.  See CFRs 61.65 (d) for just the instrument rating and 61.183 for instructor requirements. 

 

William

Thank you. 

[0TreeLemur]

One human factor in the mix here is that when VIP pax says "get us there by 10:30" and your entire salary comes from VIP pax, there is tremendous pressure to get there.   Sad outcome in this case, getting pinched out of VFR by rising terrain into the great unknown without a plan.

Something like this happened to me a few years ago and I was a front seat pax in a Eurocopter- and I was busy trying to get the pilot to land.   He got us turned around and luckily there were no towers to hit in the area.  But we were only about 200 ft AGL or less  and the only thing I could see were the Brahma cattle grazing in a pasture below.   It was raining so hard and I could hear thunder claps over the turboshaft engine and prop noise.   He flew into it thinking that if he could only get a little bit further he would be back in VFR.   That didn't happen.   Luckily we got out.  Scary stuff.

[ilovecornfields]

Prelim report is out:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA20MA059-Investigative-Update.pdf

Videos and photos taken by the public in the area of the accident also depict fog and low clouds obscuring the hilltops. Figure 5a was taken by a witness on the mountain bike trail about 0950. The witness stated that the area was surrounded by mist. He said he began to hear the sound of a helicopter, which he described as appropriate for a helicopter flying while in a powered condition. He perceived the sound getting louder and saw a blue and white helicopter emerge from the clouds passing from left to right directly to his left. He judged it to be moving fast, travelling on a forward and descending trajectory. It started to roll to the left such that he caught a glimpse of its belly. He observed it for 1 to 2 seconds, before it impacted terrain about 50 feet below his position.

[MooneyMitch]

4,000 FPM is obviously one hellofa decent rate!!  The question of course is..............why? 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

4,000 FPM is obviously one hellofa decent rate!!  The question of course is..............why? 

I thought Spatial D and / or Graveyard Spiral. He was Special VFR, likely into IMC while dodging terrain. Transitioning to gages with no preparation would be difficult with no time or altitude to recover. I like to be solidly on the panel before going IMC . . . .

[MooneyMitch]

17 hours ago, Hank said:

I thought Spatial D and / or Graveyard Spiral. He was Special VFR, likely into IMC while dodging terrain. Transitioning to gages with no preparation would be difficult with no time or altitude to recover. I like to be solidly on the panel before going IMC . . . .

For goodness sake, it was a helicopter!  Fly into a cloud full speed ahead?  Why not simply stop forward speed, or at least slow down to nearly a stop as you see the clouds ahead..............get your act together and then slowly make your way up, back, or whatever..... get ATC flight follow on board again .....and get out of harms way?  

Isn’t that why helicopters are allowed to fly with less weather restrictions, because they can do all that?

If it is determined to be SD, how incredibly sad with such poor decision making by the pilot.

And of course, it’s so easy to arm chair all this, which I’m completely guilty of. 

[gsxrpilot]

A few notes:

• I've heard from my brother who is instrument rated in helicopters, that they are exceedingly difficult to fly slow or hover in IMC. This means slowing to a hover in inadvertent IMC is extremely difficult and shouldn't be done. 
• It looks as if he was attempting to fly a Chandelle (avoid terrain and turn around) during the transition from VMC to IMC. This would also be an extremely difficult maneuver to pull off.
• The charter operator was a VFR only Part 135 operation. This likely means the CFII rated pilot didn't fly much if any actual IMC as his full time employer for quite a few years wasn't certified for IFR flights.

I'd wager he was a good pilot and could have pulled off this maneuver 8 out of 10 times. He just couldn't this time.