bradp Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 2 hours ago, 201Mooniac said: You will get GPS ground track in that situation, not heading. Which is arguably much more useful than flying a magnetic heading anyway. Time is a flat circle. Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Mooniac Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, bradp said: Which is arguably much more useful than flying a magnetic heading anyway. I don't disagree but I don't think it meets the requirements to have a standby heading source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 Agree practical is not the same thing as regulatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said: I don't disagree but I don't think it meets the requirements to have a standby heading source. I haven't seen anything that requires a backup heading source, just a magnetic heading indication. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khedrei Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 This is in the cars as minimum equipment. Again... FAA might be different. (d) a magnetic compass or a magnetic direction indicator that operates independently of the aircraft electrical generating system; I'm truly astonished that this conversation is still going. Airliners have compasses. What makes anyone think we shouldnt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, khedrei said: I'm truly astonished that this conversation is still going. Airliners have compasses. What makes anyone think we shouldnt? I fully agree! airliners have jet engines... I think Mooney should supply the STC for the 450hp Turboprop... Airliners have a pair of pro pilots... this might be a hassle for some Mooney drivers... Hey, even when this conversation ends.... somebody will bring it up in the future... just by appending a simple note. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, CFI, or forum expert... For back-up power... my M20C carried an extra battery... that plugged into the cigar lighter socket... it came with an air pump and could get used for jump starts too... it probably came from the aviation aisle at Costco... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201wantabe Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, carusoam said: I fully agree! airliners have jet engines... I think Mooney should supply the STC for the 450hp Turboprop... Airliners have a pair of pro pilots... this might be a hassle for some Mooney drivers... Hey, even when this conversation ends.... somebody will bring it up in the future... just by appending a simple note. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic, CFI, or forum expert... For back-up power... my M20C carried an extra battery... that plugged into the cigar lighter socket... it came with an air pump and could get used for jump starts too... it probably came from the aviation aisle at Costco... Best regards, -a- I am also surprised this conversation is still going but a few folks have brought up something that bugs me about the certified G5 install. While we should probably venture to a different thread to discuss it, the G5 STC does not allow for an IFR installation to have the internal antenna (which requires an additional external antenna) to be hooked up and installed. I have seen one person get a 337 for this but for whatever reason Garmin says this is a no go even though in the experimental guide they recommend giving the G5 a secondary GPS as "In the event of a power failure the G5 will still be able to retain a GPS/INS solution to display pitch, roll, yaw, slip and GPS track". I will add to this that if you loose your primary GPS the G5 AHRS only solution will start to degrade, while you have 4 hours of battery life, without GPS the AHRS solution will precess just like a DG depending on how your flying, the G5 will throw up a big red X in AHRS only mode in like 45 minutes to an hour. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Mooniac Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 15 hours ago, 201wantabe said: I am also surprised this conversation is still going but a few folks have brought up something that bugs me about the certified G5 install. While we should probably venture to a different thread to discuss it, the G5 STC does not allow for an IFR installation to have the internal antenna (which requires an additional external antenna) to be hooked up and installed. I have seen one person get a 337 for this but for whatever reason Garmin says this is a no go even though in the experimental guide they recommend giving the G5 a secondary GPS as "In the event of a power failure the G5 will still be able to retain a GPS/INS solution to display pitch, roll, yaw, slip and GPS track". I will add to this that if you loose your primary GPS the G5 AHRS only solution will start to degrade, while you have 4 hours of battery life, without GPS the AHRS solution will precess just like a DG depending on how your flying, the G5 will throw up a big red X in AHRS only mode in like 45 minutes to an hour. I'm not sure I am understanding you correctly but if you are saying that you can't have the G5 both connected to an external GPS and have the external antenna with the internal GPS enabled then please look at the latest rev of the install manual, Rev 21 I believe, as it added that as a legal configuration. The manual is vague on it but you can see on Page 17 of Rev 21 that it states: Note: It is possible to connect to both a Glare Shield Mounted GPS Antenna via a coaxial cable and a GPS navigator over RS-232 simultaneously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, 201Mooniac said: I'm not sure I am understanding you correctly but if you are saying that you can't have the G5 both connected to an external GPS and have the external antenna with the internal GPS enabled then please look at the latest rev of the install manual, Rev 21 I believe, as it added that as a legal configuration. The manual is vague on it but you can see on Page 17 of Rev 21 that it states: Note: It is possible to connect to both a Glare Shield Mounted GPS Antenna via a coaxial cable and a GPS navigator over RS-232 simultaneously. I believe it always said that. What it doesn't allow is using its internal antenna. Which works great BTW. If you loose your GPS. you can exercise your emergency authority to change the settings to turn on the internal GPS. It would be a good thing to learn how to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMooney Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 I want an optima yellow top as a second battery, think i can get a 337 for that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Mooniac Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 That note was added to Rev 21 as you can tell by the change tracking mark in the doc. I know because I was asking for that change as before that you couldn't even use the external antenna if you had an external GPS connected. I've tried the internal GPS without an external antenna in my 201 and it didn't work well out on the ramp. I didn't try it in air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said: That note was added to Rev 21 as you can tell by the change tracking mark in the doc. I know because I was asking for that change as before that you couldn't even use the external antenna if you had an external GPS connected. I've tried the internal GPS without an external antenna in my 201 and it didn't work well out on the ramp. I didn't try it in air. I tried it today and it worked great. I lost all heading on both G5s when I shut off power to the GMU. Enabling the Internal GPS brought back ground track heading. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 12:36 AM, 201wantabe said: I am also surprised this conversation is still going but a few folks have brought up something that bugs me about the certified G5 install. While we should probably venture to a different thread to discuss it, the G5 STC does not allow for an IFR installation to have the internal antenna (which requires an additional external antenna) to be hooked up and installed. I have seen one person get a 337 for this but for whatever reason Garmin says this is a no go even though in the experimental guide they recommend giving the G5 a secondary GPS as "In the event of a power failure the G5 will still be able to retain a GPS/INS solution to display pitch, roll, yaw, slip and GPS track". I will add to this that if you loose your primary GPS the G5 AHRS only solution will start to degrade, while you have 4 hours of battery life, without GPS the AHRS solution will precess just like a DG depending on how your flying, the G5 will throw up a big red X in AHRS only mode in like 45 minutes to an hour. when you are seeing conversations that started in 2009... those are the ones to be surprised about... Mooney hardware discussions are typically timeless... same hardware for 60years... When it comes to certified installs... The manufacturer is saying... if you do this... it will work in the certified manner... This is important when you rely on an instrument to not fail in IMC near the ground.... If you install an antenna that is different, or in a different location... You become the test pilot to make sure it works as expected... Some planes have different shadowing capabilities... A GPS antenna under your glare shield probably won’t see a portion of the sky behind you... you may have accepted a shadow doing this... great if the satellite you need isn’t behind you... If you had the choice... mount the antenna on the roof that has visibility to most of the sky... Expect that there are people that actually study antenna technology, and write installation manuals for a reason... Sometimes, the whole gamut of what is possible doesn’t get completed by the manufacturer... Garmin doesn’t test all airplanes for all possibilities... it cost them more than they want to pay... If this is the case... we have methods of doing the proper tests... and get approval for our installation... approval is essentially another trained brain over-looking the work you are proposing... Even Garmin has had difficulty with GPS antennas mounted in the best of locations... something that plagued them in early G530 and G430 installs a decade or so ago... So don’t expect that they are going to be really helpful when you want to do something different... they can be helpful when approached the right way... It helps to know who to ask... and what to ask.... To get to the right answer... IFR requirements are difficult for a reason... your life depends on it... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captnmack Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 1/25/2020 at 6:27 PM, Browncbr1 said: I’ve had my dual g5 setup for two years and really like it. I was just looking on the garmin website to see about software updates and read that when they are connected to a gmu11 ( as I have done) it is certified for primary magnetic compass. I never realized that before and that’s why I still have my crappy ugly old whisky compass on the steel tube. If I have complete electrical failure, I still have 4 independent sources on battery for gps ground track. What do you guys think about removing the ugly whisky compass? Even the latest 777x has a Whiskey Compass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201wantabe Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 20 hours ago, 201Mooniac said: I'm not sure I am understanding you correctly but if you are saying that you can't have the G5 both connected to an external GPS and have the external antenna with the internal GPS enabled then please look at the latest rev of the install manual, Rev 21 I believe, as it added that as a legal configuration. The manual is vague on it but you can see on Page 17 of Rev 21 that it states: Note: It is possible to connect to both a Glare Shield Mounted GPS Antenna via a coaxial cable and a GPS navigator over RS-232 simultaneously. 18 hours ago, 201Mooniac said: That note was added to Rev 21 as you can tell by the change tracking mark in the doc. I know because I was asking for that change as before that you couldn't even use the external antenna if you had an external GPS connected. I've tried the internal GPS without an external antenna in my 201 and it didn't work well out on the ramp. I didn't try it in air. I guess I am a rev or two behind, what I had read was that for a certified install you had the option of having the external antenna using internal GPS receiver OR use the GPS information from an IFR navigator with the later being the approved IFR install. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, N201MKTurbo said: I believe it always said that. What it doesn't allow is using its internal antenna. Which works great BTW. If you loose your GPS. you can exercise your emergency authority to change the settings to turn on the internal GPS. It would be a good thing to learn how to do. Interesting... I guess I thought you had both gps receivers enabled, but it only used the internal one if it lost the gns/gtn panel mounted. I’ll reread the install instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, N201MKTurbo said: I believe it always said that. What it doesn't allow is using its internal antenna. Which works great BTW. If you loose your GPS. you can exercise your emergency authority to change the settings to turn on the internal GPS. It would be a good thing to learn how to do. And I should learn to read the install manual first, post second. He’s correct, internal gps is supposed to be disabled for a certified installation with a panel mount gps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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