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2/22/2020 Come say goodbye (or hello) to The Grove (8A6 in NC)


eman1200

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....I actually ended up buying an aircraft that was not listed with ADS-B, but negotiated that it was to be installed prior to the purchase. That was a $4500.00 negotiation in my favor as we had a garmin transponder installed. as part of the deal...  Had the owner done it prior, he would have been able to enjoy the benefits and I wouldn't have haggled on the matter.


That sounds crazy to me. If I was the seller I would have said adsb isn’t required, put it in yourself. I might have dropped the price slightly but that’s about it.
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Austin has gotten on a slippery slope...

One will probably get tired of swapping out transponders the second time they have to pay for one.

Some of us have the memory of updating for Mode C... Now ADSB... expect another change a decade from now...

Depending on where you are in life... the extra couple of AMUs can be the difference between flying or not flying...

Real disappointment can set in... when the extra AMUs your big government wants you to pay... for something you can live without... When the extra AMUs keeps you from being able to fly...


getting ADSB out cost me as much as my annual cost...

 

The benefits probably aren’t of much use in a crowded traffic pattern... anyone looking at their screen isn’t going to see me on short final... :)

Best regards,

-a-

 

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To expound on what Carusoam just posted, and establish myself as a heretic...

I fly in busy SoCal airspace so you'd think I'd love ADSB, but I haven't been all that impressed. I've had ADS-B IN via Scout for over two years and thought it might have better performance after installing the TailBeacon in late December for the OUT requirement.

Meh, not so much.

ATC point-outs commonly aren't showing up, and I've noticed rather large discrepancies of position on my Foreflight display vs. where the traffic is out the windscreen!  I'm not about to change my 'head on a swivel' policy!  And, it's worthless in the traffic pattern (actually a hazard if you've got your head down looking at screen when in a traffic pattern).

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3 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Ahhh.... Well, is ADS-B on your short list?   Sounds like it could pay for itself for you pretty quick.  What does it cost per hour for your aircraft?  If a route around B cost you half an hour, that is 1 hour per round trip... I would think 10 trips or less and it is paid for and you saved your precious time....

ADS-B is not on my list at all, long or short. Rarely visit C space, my C doesn't climb well above 10K,  and the last 6 years since moving back South, ATL has NEVER ONCE cleared me into the Bravo. If I can't play, I ain't agonna pay!

My most common flight path is directly over ATL on course ~045; they'd rather me circle around through the arrival and departure gates at 8000 & up than fly through the empty airspace directly above the field. IFR, it's either HEFIN or SINCA; some controllers let me choose, and I squint at the weather. VFR, it used to be "remain clear of the Bravo" but the last couple years has changed to "stay out of the Bravo." So no, I ain't paying for the continued privilege of not playing. Charlotte and Cincinnati are more friendly, but I don't go there even every 2-3 years.

Besides, at $45-50/hour in fuel, it will take many hour-long diversions (30 minutes each way) to pay back 2 AMU + Install . . . . .

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2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Austin has gotten on a slippery slope...

 

-a-

 

How is recognizing that if used properly ADS-B can enhance safety a slippery slope?  Even if, as Mike pointed out,  there are some flaws occurring... It is still an improvement in situational awareness.  What is the mentality?  it doesn't work perfect so i will just fly completely blind?

  Just like any technology you have to understand it and know how to use it properly and understand its limits.

I suspect someone once scoffed at

Transponders

ADS -b weather

synthetic vision

TCAS

RNAV approaches

Claiming they were not needed or were not flawless and that they were expensive ECT.

 

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38 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

How is recognizing that if used properly ADS-B can enhance safety a slippery slope?  Even if, as Mike pointed out,  there are some flaws occurring... It is still an improvement in situational awareness.  What is the mentality?  it doesn't work perfect so i will just fly completely blind?

  Just like any technology you have to understand it and know how to use it properly and understand its limits.

I suspect someone once scoffed at

Transponders

ADS -b weather

synthetic vision

TCAS

RNAV approaches

Claiming they were not needed or were not flawless and that they were expensive ECT.

 

For some people...

It is outside of their budget.

The slippery slope I was referring to... is the dough required to fly your existing plane when the government requires an upgrade...

The slippery part... is accepting one upgrade... leads to another and another and another...

 

Accepting a new technology is great...

Unfortunately, it isn’t acceptable to everyone’s finances...

Especially to the people that are just getting started with airplane ownership... or the ones reaching retirement...

It seems that airplane ownership is getting progressively harder and harder...

Of course...a G500txi would also improve my situational awareness....    but if Uncle Sam requires me to have one... I may need to throw in the towel...

Better... I would be forced to throw in the kid’s remaining college fund... 

I will have to practice...   “It’s not my fault honey... Uncle Sam wants me to have a color screen...”

 

Some days it gets tough to have extra dough around for things like this... even with a decade of advance warning...

 

Forward looking statement...   hedge your bets... marry somebody that gets paid well... make plenty of dough yourself... invest well... have  a good stream of cash coming in... have insurance for everything... Pray to one or more gods... get, and stay lucky...

And if you have kids... let them be healthy!

Real life is expensive.  Every now and then, a few AMUs is a lot of money to spend on a hobby.

I hope you can see their point... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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3 hours ago, eman1200 said:

 


That sounds crazy to me. If I was the seller I would have said adsb isn’t required, put it in yourself. I might have dropped the price slightly but that’s about it.

The problem is that not having ADS-B would have drastically effected the operation of the aircraft.  Not having ADS-B on an aircraft that can easily go above FL180 and benefits greatly from doing so would be like buying a Ferrari with  4 spare donut tires on it.  I wasn't buying a rocket to be limited to FL170 and excluded from going through, under or over Class B. 

But you are making my point for me with your comment... you said would have dropped the price...  That means essentially you would have paid at least in part for ADSB, but not ever seen any of the benefits from it.

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8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For some people...

It is outside of their budget.

The slippery slope I was referring to... is the dough required to fly your existing plane when the government requires an upgrade...

The slippery part... is accepting one upgrade... leads to another and another and another...

 

 

How many mandatory upgrades has the general aviation community suffered as a whole in the last 2-3 decades?  I am not talking about specific aircraft AD's... I am talking about fleetwide?

It may be 0....  Transponders still are not 100% required to fly.

You could argue that TAWS was one, but that was for turbojets only.

I think the FAA has been VERY lenient in forcing the new tech upon us...  It surprises me because It can be argued that having only a portion of aircraft in the sky with it can cause more danger than none of them having it. That would of course be due to the ones who have it being complacent.  Furthermore, if every aircraft had it, then there are millions if not billions of dollars that can be saved on ground equipment.

That being said, I also think they have been a bit overbearing on the certification requirements of the equipment.  No reason there shouldn't be ADSB solutions in the sub 500.00 range.  It also makes no sense that a 1000.00 ADSB solution exist for experimentals only... If it is good enough to do the job, what does it matter what certification the aircraft it is on has?

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

That being said, I also think they have been a bit overbearing on the certification requirements of the equipment.  No reason there shouldn't be ADSB solutions in the sub 500.00 range.  It also makes no sense that a 1000.00 ADSB solution exist for experimentals only... If it is good enough to do the job, what does it matter what certification the aircraft it is on has?

To a bureaucrat, it's all about them having power over their "subjects," and enforcing the letter of the rules without regard to the spirit. Because it's all about the power, and them having it. We all know that breaking the rules will break our planes, rendering us unable to fly . . . .

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1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

The problem is that not having ADS-B would have drastically effected the operation of the aircraft.  Not having ADS-B on an aircraft that can easily go above FL180 and benefits greatly from doing so would be like buying a Ferrari with  4 spare donut tires on it.  I wasn't buying a rocket to be limited to FL170 and excluded from going through, under or over Class B. 

But you are making my point for me with your comment... you said would have dropped the price...  That means essentially you would have paid at least in part for ADSB, but not ever seen any of the benefits from it.

huh?  what in the world are you talking about?  adsb has no impact on how a plane flies. if you wanted a plane with adsb, you should look for a plane with adsb, not one that doesn't then whine about it.  I'm also not even close to making your point for you.  you were the one who said you can get adsb for a grand,  I said I'd price my plane accordingly. if two planes were identical minus adsb and that was the plane I was trying to sell, I'd price it a grand less.  why in the world would I agree to the most expensive adsb solution and pay for it?  I actually doubt that even happened to you, sounds pretty made up to me.  it's like telling someone to put on tundra tires because you want to fly in the bush.  not the sellers concern, put em on yourself.

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52 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

what in the world are you talking about?  adsb has no impact on how a plane flies

His point is well made. A Rocket without ADSB is prohibited from flying above 18K ft. That affects how the plane flies as they fly much better and much more efficiently in the flight levels. The same goes for my 252. A turbo Mooney without ADSB might as well be parked.

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1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

His point is well made. A Rocket without ADSB is prohibited from flying above 18K ft. That affects how the plane flies as they fly much better and much more efficiently in the flight levels. The same goes for my 252. A turbo Mooney without ADSB might as well be parked.

I still don't see how that relates to the former owner spending 100% of the money to put in adsb.  split it?  maybe, all in the negotiations.  price it accordingly?  sure.  but if it was my plane I guarantee I wouldn't front the full cost of putting an expensive adsb solution into the plane I'm selling.

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I hope everyone is remembering that ADS-B out is required above 10,000’ not just FL180.  The difference is that above FL180 1090ES is required, between 10 and 18 UAT is allowed.

And I agree with Paul, what’s the sense in having a turbo’ed Mooney if you don’t have ADS-B?

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1 minute ago, eman1200 said:

I still don't see how that relates to the former owner spending 100% of the money to put in adsb.  split it?  maybe, all in the negotiations.  price it accordingly?  sure.  but if it was my plane I guarantee I wouldn't front the full cost of putting an expensive adsb solution into the plane I'm selling.

I agree with you 100% that it's all up for negotiations. Everything is up for negotiation. But I can tell you that I wouldn't buy a turbo Mooney without ADSB unless the negotiated price included room for me to do the install of a proper 1090ES ADSB system. As far as I'm concerned, the airplane is useless without it. And lack of ADSB will undoubtedly affect the value of most airplanes going forward.

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2 hours ago, eman1200 said:

huh?  what in the world are you talking about?  adsb has no impact on how a plane flies. if you wanted a plane with adsb, you should look for a plane with adsb, not one that doesn't then whine about it.  I'm also not even close to making your point for you.  you were the one who said you can get adsb for a grand,  I said I'd price my plane accordingly. if two planes were identical minus adsb and that was the plane I was trying to sell, I'd price it a grand less.  why in the world would I agree to the most expensive adsb solution and pay for it?  I actually doubt that even happened to you, sounds pretty made up to me.  it's like telling someone to put on tundra tires because you want to fly in the bush.  not the sellers concern, put em on yourself.

Do you understand that a turbocharged aircraft goes faster with altitude?  Do you not think that aircraft speed is a big part of the selling point?  Ever read about how the 252 was made by mooney?  A lot of the extra speed over the 232 was simply because they certified it to FL280. So YES... not having ADSB limits the aircrafts performance and capability.

Who is whining?  I negotiated a deal on an aircraft...  I was happy, seller was happy... Done deal.  Again.. who is whining?

Yea, I was a bit off on the price for ADSB, I acknowledged that.

It really baffles me... it seems like you are more interested in a pissing contest than to read what I have written...

SO again.. in YOUR words... you said if your airplane was next to an identical one, you would price it 1000.00 less.... SO, at the end of the day, you are paying $1000.00 on account of ADSB...  Tail beacon is 1800.00...  So for 800 dollars more, you could have enjoyed the benefits and added safety of ADSB.  Maybe that wouldnt be worth it to you... that's fine, to me it is a no brainier.  I want every safety advantage I can get.

 

I really don't give a crap what you believe... BUT... since you are calling me a liar...  Put your money where your mouth is.... 2 AMU's says it DID happen and that I can prove it.  heck, no sense in capping it at 2amus... You pick... its a sure thing for me.

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1 hour ago, eman1200 said:
1 hour ago, eman1200 said:

I still don't see how that relates to the former owner spending 100% of the money to put in adsb.  split it?  maybe, all in the negotiations.  price it accordingly?  sure.  but if it was my plane I guarantee I wouldn't front the full cost of putting an expensive adsb solution into the plane I'm selling.

I still don't see how that relates to the former owner spending 100% of the money to put in adsb.  split it?  maybe, all in the negotiations.  price it accordingly?  sure.  but if it was my plane I guarantee I wouldn't front the full cost of putting an expensive adsb solution into the plane I'm selling.

Would you buy a house with no roof on it?

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....I really don't give a crap what you believe... BUT... since you are calling me a liar...  Put your money where your mouth is.... $2000.00 says it DID happen and that I can prove it.


I actually don’t give a shit. I’d prefer you take this to your own thread and not clog up mine with something totally unrelated to the original topic.


Would you buy a house with no roof on it?


Yes. Yes I would. It’s totally the same thing. Buh bye.
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20 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

 


I actually don’t give a shit. I’d prefer you take this to your own thread and not clog up mine with something totally unrelated to the original topic.




Yes. Yes I would. It’s totally the same thing. Buh bye.

So you own Mooney space now do you?

Let's remember... YOU came at me with the hostility... YOU called ME a liar and wont back your claim nor apologize.  I have been nothing but polite to you.  I have no idea why you have gone on an attack.  If you wanted the discussion to stay related to field closure, you could have just asked, how should I have known when you were participating in the side talk?

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Gents,

its the weekend... lighten up, or we all get locked out...

 

in about 25 years of flying... I have three government mandates that were memorable...

1) Mode C added...

2) LORAN removed...

3) ADSB added...

Yes, it is progress...

Yes, it is expensive...

Yes, I prefer inclusivity... everyone gets to play...

I don’t prefer exclusivity where one needs to be rich to fly a plane

I also don’t like airport closings, or to see Transition Training mandated...

Some things make good sense, when affordable... others not so much...

 

Now... how about this $500 ADSB rebate for the early adopters...?

Why not for everyone, like the on-time adopters... or the guy that just bought his plane?

 

Bringing the black rain in public discussions is harmful to the community...  we need more people in the community, not less...
 

Best regards,

-a-

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  • 4 weeks later...

About 2 dozen people showed up, some from Wilgrove, some elsewhere. Eman (Eric) bought pizza.  Salty (Greg) flew in from Tampa.  I asked about his old Mooney and he said it was newer than me.  I did not figure out who he was until I got home.  Just sold and exhaust system to him.  Small world, huh.  Dr. Bill was there.  Others, sorry, I did not get names.  Another Mooney from Chattanooga.  Someone took some pics, hopefully they will show up here shortly.  Alan Cobb, the airport manager loved the unexpected turnout.  We will most likely have another get-together with burgers, mid-April.  I'll post something at the end of March.  Alan, several others and I are moving our planes to Goose Creek, 28A and will host another cookout in conjunction with the (fairly new) owners of Goose Creek in May.  About 1:15 PM today while most were there, the last two Cherokee 140s left Wilgrove headed to their new owners, the new flight school at Goose Creek.

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I just copied my post from PoA since this was mainly a PoA event:

 

PoA_8A6_2_22_2020.jpg.b8e6444a30d075de5d079cd60a83ff9d.jpg

 

front row starting with green jacket on the left, that's Gary. he's been based out of 8A6 for a long time, recently sold this pristine cherokee then hung it up. we go flying now and then, usually to one of the SCBC meet ups. good to keep him flying. then there's Zack who is also based at the grove and flies a mooney so he's gotta be a good guy. middle is @Salty . he looks mad cause he flew up from florida and couldn't have any pizza. the black dude is Chris, he's a local guy and he doesn't know he's black so if you meet him please don't let the cat out of the bag. it'll be our little secret. then the world famous @write-stuff Russ from Gold Seal/PoA.

middle row left is, dang it, the one name I can't remember, came up with Russ, sorry dude. tall dude #1 is PoA's own @Bill Jennings . no idea what his real name is. tall dude #2 is @snglecoil Chris, who apparently is based out of my home field as well. then there's eman with either the "man I suck at landing" grin or the "I was promised Ho's at this party. WHERE are the Ho's?!?" look on his face.

back row left is David, he's active on mooneyspace and has been based at the grove for longer than just about anyone there. also a pretty smart fella since he flies a mooney. then there's @kc4wsd David and his son Austin. lookin like a true ladies man is @Ryanb , followed by either a serial killer OR @SkyDog58 (David). last dude in the back row is Trevor, another locally based dude who ended up buying the plane me and several of us trained in. @TRocket showed up a bit late for the photo and for pizza, but better late than nevah.

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