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approved sims for currency


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It’s cold and dark and icy. My plane has been down for annual for over two weeks. I may still be instrument current, but I sure ain’t proficient. This situation has got me thinking about what sims are approved for currency and the possibility of buying one for home. There seems to be a 7amu Redbird option.  Not CB material.  Anything else out there or on the horizon?  It would seem to be a booming market for these things since the rule change that no longer requires an instructor to log approaches on a sim...

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Dev- the Redbirds are great for both proficiency and currency, but it really sounds like what you're looking for is just staying proficient and comfortable in the system.  For that, any of the home PC simulators with a decent stick (yoke and rudder pedals are better) will work admirably.  There have been some discussions around here about some of those.

Also, as a new IFR pilot some years ago, I often marveled at how just filing IFR and doing a 50 mile cross country really helped keep my head in the game and boosted my confidence, even if the whole thing was done in VMC.  But that doesn't really help much this time of year.

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For the home sim setups like XPlane seriously consider a forced-feedback yoke.  I don't have one, but everyone I know who does says it's great and I plan on getting one, probably before next winter.  Also the RealityXP GNS/GTN sims are a must-have add on for a realistic experience.  Not sure there is anything available that does the IFDs well.

The key difference, as you note, is if it will work for the user to be current (know what to do in what sequence), proficient (do that with their equipment), or legal (be able to log / use legally).  Each of these introduces different, mostly incremental, requirements.

Edited by tmo
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To log the time for currency requires a Advanced Aviation Training Device (AATD) that is FAA approved. A Letter of Authorization (LOA) will stipulate the approved uses and limitations.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afx/afs/afs800/afs810/media/FAA_Approved_Airplane_ATDs.pdf

Bottom line is that you won’t find an affordable personal device for logging time. Your best bet is to find a flight school with an approved AATD to use. As noted, under the latest rules an instructor is no longer required for logging any currency time in an AATD since this is not considered training.

If you just want to maintain proficiency, there are lots of relatively inexpensive flight controls that when coupled with a PC running MS Flight Simulator or X-plane can provide useful practice. An intriguing idea is to couple this with PilotEdge

https://www.pilotedge.net

I’ve heard favorable reviews of PilotEdge but have never tried it and would be interested in the experiences of any MSers that have used it.

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Edited by PT20J
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I use X-Plane for proficiency and the airplane for currency. Your airplane being down cramps your currency opportunities but you can still maintain procedural proficiency with a less-than-AATD desktop simulator like X-Plane or FSX.

I've looked at Redbird, FlyThisSim, and other stuff that's in development and came to the same conclusion Skip @PT20J presented above. It takes relatively big $$$ to acquire an AATD that you can legally log time with. Your cost/benefit analysis is dependent on your individual situation and I can see some instances where it would make sense. But you can probably get set up with X-Plane with the computer you have with some decent flight controls that won't break the bank and maintain your proficiency in much of the procedural stuff, and its great for emergency practice. I also sometimes use it for "rehearsal" before going into a strange field, especially if there's an interesting approach or I think I may have a challenge visually locating the field.

If you go the non-approved desktop sim route, I recommend taking a look at www.pilotworkshop.com and purchasing their "Getting Started with Flight Simulation" module. It has some good detailed info from Jeff Van West and Keith Smith on how to use X-Plane to your best benefit for proficiency. Trying to replicate control feel gets very pricey very quickly so I don't recommend even trying as you'll probably be disappointed. Your money would be better spent on a very large area display or VR goggles for better immersion. I use a 27" Mac and would like something larger.

Cheers,
Rick

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Actually I think only a BATD is required, but it doesn't change much.   They're still more expensive than most people would be comfortable with for home use.

I've thought that this would be an opportunity for somebody to set up a shop with a few BATDs/AATDs and just rent time on them for people wanting to keep IFR current.  Some training time of how to use the device would be necessary, but that do-able.  

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10 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Actually I think only a BATD is required, but it doesn't change much. 

I think you are correct. The LOA will specify. I found this summary of a very confusing subject.

https://www.ast-simulators.com.au/resources/simulator-levels-explained

To add to the confusion, in FAA parlance, a Flight Simulator has to be very high fidelity, with a visual system and 3 axis motion base. Think airline training or FlightSafety. But, Microsoft for many years has made a software product called Flight Simulator which name the original author, Bruce Artwick, trademarked. This is why no competing products are called flight simulators.

I would be interested in what others find the most useful hardware/software setups for practicing at home.

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There is a thread around here recently of all the MS sim users... including the recent update to MSFS...

Some sims can’t be logged...

Doesn’t mean they won’t be helpful...

Craig had an awesome sim for sale around here... but it may have sold...

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=MSFS

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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Thanks for the responses - my thought process around considering a home sim was as follows:

1. I don't have the time, aptitude, or interest needed to put together a custom sim system, so a turnkey system is essential.

2. I visited my local flight school's higher end motion sim last year, but I found setup pretty cumbersome. The learning curve was  significant to get to the point where I could use the sim to practice what I want. And overall, the cost and convenience factor didn't seem much better than scheduling with an instructor in my plane, so I walked out thinking the latter is preferable. 

3. I could put up with the sim usage learning curve if I could do it in my own bedroom without having to schedule time and drive 25 minutes to the school. In that case, it would be really nice to log approaches on an approved sim based on the FAA rule change, which is what tipped me over into considering sim time in the first place.  

Someone pointed out there's a cheaper approved option than the Redbird, but it's still 5.4amu:

https://www.flythissim.com/products/fixed-wing-flight-simulators/touchtrainer-sd.html

It looks appealing but at 5.4amu, that's still a lot of money that might be better spent on Avgas and time under the hood with my instructor.  

Com

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I don't think you'll find many, if any, pilots that go out and buy an AATD or BATD. But people that previously hired an instructor and rented time on a Redbird, which are very common at local airports, can now do it alone. in addition to many BATD Redbirds, we even have a full motion AATD Redbird where I teach which is lot more fun to work in than the BATD's where you don't have much feel for the aircraft. I still prefer to fly but for many, especially those that find it difficult to line up a safety pilot or renters with a very limited budget really like the economics of renting a Redbird. 

Edited by kortopates
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I have some experience with this having worked on the first generation of PCATDs.  I spent a lot of time with the FAA discussing certification in the early 1990s. Back then, the FAA had three major concerns:

1. They didn't have any data to prove that anything less than a full motion simulator was effective for transferring skills from the device to the airplane.

2. They were concerned about the fidelity of the simulators. Early designs had poor flight dynamics modelling and the computers were too slow to have acceptable frame rates.

3. They believed strongly that real knobs and switches were necessary. Any mention of a mouse sent them running for the hills.

The first issue was pretty much put to bed when the FAA funded a study (I can't recall - I think it was University of North Dakota but it might have been Embry-Riddle) that showed positive transfer of skills from a simple simulator to the airplane.

The second issue has been solved by software and hardware advances

So, the last major hurdle is the user interface. Computer touch screens have improved and more and more airplane systems are using touch screens. Perhaps at some point it will all come together. Thirty years ago, the FAA was very skeptical. Today, there are a lot of believers in low cost simulators within the FAA. My prediction is that some day you will be able to get a relatively inexpensive device that you can use at home and log -- unless the AATD and BATD manufacturers successfully lobby against it to protect their market. (If you think that can't happen, read up on how Intuit has successfully lobbied to keep the IRS from working on an online tax filing system that would obviate the need for TurboTax).

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Looks great for a flight school to have one... great for turning rainy days into something much more useful...

A flight club to have one... run in after work and get an hour of sim time going...

A sim club to have one... Just add a coin slot/ dollar collector...

 

For the high performance people... how does a person get time to use a sim without owning one personally?

The objective...

  • Simulate Mooney flight... M20A to M20V (if able)
  • Log IFR approaches for legal currency...
  • Practice IFR approaches in all weather conditions for familiarity/currency/practice

 

That sim would need to be easier to set-up and use than MSFS...

These are questions I would like to ask a BATD supplier if one were to show up here...  :)

The question that always arises.... what if we bought more than one?

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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I believe Redbird has a locator on their web site. There seem to be many Redbird FMX units (full motion) out there. I’ve seen $25-40/hr for them; they are $59k new.


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  • 2 months later...
On 1/19/2020 at 10:32 AM, tmo said:

For the home sim setups like XPlane seriously consider a forced-feedback yoke.  I don't have one, but everyone I know who does says it's great and I plan on getting one, probably before next winter.  Also the RealityXP GNS/GTN sims are a must-have add on for a realistic experience.  Not sure there is anything available that does the IFDs well.

The key difference, as you note, is if it will work for the user to be current (know what to do in what sequence), proficient (do that with their equipment), or legal (be able to log / use legally).  Each of these introduces different, mostly incremental, requirements.

What type of forced feedback yoke and rudder peddles that are good and not to much $$

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The only one I heard good things about from a trusted source is this: Brunner CLS-E force feedback yoke

A bundle of yoke and rudder pedals is here for a measly $3800.

The person making the recommendation didn't know if the "NG" version was any good, so you might want to have a look around for reviews.

I have no direct experience, couldn't get myself to spend ca $2k for a sim yoke, but given the times I just might.

Edited by tmo
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Spend $2k on a yoke or $2k for a few roles of toilet paper?  Tough decisions. :)

I did see some DIY guy building his own and providing instructions to build your own.  I am to cheep for the $2k and no inclination to tackle a DIY project like that.  I might end up with the Honeycomb Alpha Yoke (about $250)

 

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Yes, heard good things about the Honeycomb yoke.  Cannot say many good things about the Logitech / Saitek yoke, except that I have it and it's better than not having one.  But I'd look for something else next time around.

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The problem I have seen often with sims is a yoke with a dead center.  In a Mooney (as an example) you bring the aircraft into level flight and you can hold it there with the yoke, you have direct control authority, the yoke is directly connected to the control surfaces with no slack.  Lots of yokes for sims go dead right at center.  There is a small sort of hole in the middle where the yoke is not doing anything.  The aircraft can then drift off slightly and you have to constantly counteract it.  I recently flew in an ALSIM, which is probably north of 100k, and it did not have this problem.  But many of the cheap yokes meant to be connected to a PC definitely do.  If someone knows of a good yoke for a PC with no dead center, I would love to hear about it. 

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Years ago I did a lot of development work on PC flight sims. Simulator controls have some of the same issues as actual airplane controls: Dead zones, friction (which causes breakout force and centering issues). In addition, the force feedback through springs on simulator controls is not the same as the feedback you get in the airplane and the trim has a different feel. 

It is challenging to build controls that minimize these issues at low cost. The best low-cost controls are joysticks, not yokes, because they are mechanically simpler and tend to be self-centering.

I worked with Mike Altman on these issues when he first started Precision Flight Controls and his controls are still some of the best. (Interesting Mooney tie in - when he built his first controls, he was looking for a source of control wheels and I happened to know that Mooney had a large supply in stock and he bought a bunch from Mooney.)

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BTW, I learned another thing from my PC simulator experience. There is only one PC-based Flight Simulator: Microsoft. Microsoft registered "Flight Simulator" as a trademark. Actually, Microsoft was pretty reasonable when they sent me the "cease and desist" letter and let me change our Elite Flight Simulator branding and use up the existing stock of printed marketing materials.

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