Selling the airplane and limiting the liability

[cliffy]

4 hours ago, salty said:

Just curious, what is "owner logged maintenance"? I do a lot of the work on my plane including assisted annuals, but my A&P/IA logs the work. Not sure how someone would know who turned the wrench, even at an MSC, it probably wasn't the IA that signed the annual.

I do all my own maintenance and I have a license to sign off the work. I haven't signed off "outside" maintenance in many years as I get ready to sit on the porch instead of fly. It catches up to ll of us at some time as the years go by. I do however "consult" locally and in some cases around the world where my signature is not needed. 

As mentioned I an VERY particular how my maintenance is done and that's why I do it myself. I also have 3 other mechanics locally look my work to make sure I didn't miss something (as I do on some of there's). They call me in when a Mooney shows up with issues they are not familiar with as they did last week on a fuel tank leak issue. 

My issue as mentioned is the heirs and insurance companies after the smoking hole. As you get older and have assets to protect one tends to think a little different than when young and with time remaining. Its a generational thing that some of you will face in 10 or 20 years or more in some cases. Over the decades I've seen lots of stuff that had bad outcomes that's why I sometimes get testy with stupidity in aviation. Those who forget the history are bound to repeat it.   

I'll make this post just a little longer with the following-

Here are several accidents       Read them over and tell me what the common thread to all of them is-

A DC-9 going into the Florida swamp killing all on board

A Cessna 150 trying to takeoff from a beach in high and hot conditions with 2 big guys on board and crashing into a lake killing one

A WWII Corsiar   making a smoking hole in the ground after a too low loop

A Lockheed Jetstar making 3 passes at an airport at night it bad weather and making a smoking hole on a hillside on the last pass (maybe some of you will have to google that airplane to see what it is)

A Piper Comanche taking off on a rainy night for a short positioning flight and losing control at 1500 feet killing the IR pilot

A Bonanza found at the bottom of  a lake after 2 days of searching minus the tail - 

Read them over and tell me the common thread-

[David_H]

It appears that there are two paths available.

1) Take the advice of the first response posted by @N201MKTurbo , have another IA bless the plane with a thorough annual (without your involvement), and hand the keys over to the next steward knowing you did the best you could.

2) Scrap the plane and erase most of your potential liability.

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

As you get older and have assets to protect one tends to think a little different than when young and with time remaining. Its a generational thing that some of you will face in 10 or 20 years or more in some cases.

The "Generational Thing" seems to be coming up often lately. Leaving nothing to the following generation doesn't seem like the right answer though.

[Steve W]

On 1/18/2020 at 9:42 AM, ArtVandelay said:

If you’re performing AP work on others planes, and don’t have insurance, selling your plane is the least of your worries.

It's only a problem if he has any assets. Just ask my mechanic. Or don't, unless you want to hold a seance. (Not that I'm bitter or anything)

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, David_H said:

 

The "Generational Thing" seems to be coming up often lately. Leaving nothing to the following generation doesn't seem like the right answer though.

I don't think that's what Cliffy is talking about.  I understood it was more about retirement income than anything else.  That's why he said you'll face it too in 10-20 years or more.  

As you get closer to retirement, you start wondering if you've saved enough and if it'll last until you're dead.  The last thing you want is to get sued and lose everything you've worked your whole life for and have nothing left.  Then you'll have to live off of your Social Security and whatever you can scrape together as a greeter at WalMart.  No thanks.

[cliffy]

Some people even plan ahead enough for complete assisted care (for 2) for the last 10 years and don't want to put it in jeopardy to some ambulance chaser atty,  (not all just some).

Some even knew a couple of atty's that made their living suing in the aviation world. One BIG time. 

 

[jetdriven]

On 1/18/2020 at 11:26 AM, flyer338 said:

On the other hand, if there is evidence sufficient to prove unlogged work personally performed by the selling owner contributed to a wreck, all bets are off.

I’d like to see how that is proved. When a shop does poor maintenance, such as that recent magneto Falling off the F model over the  Rockies, the shop told the owner to go away. The owner can’t prove they did something negligent. . It had flown like <20 hours since the previous annual.  

 

[ArtVandelay]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I’d like to see how that is proved. When a shop does poor maintenance, such as that recent magneto Falling off the F model over the  Rockies, the shop told the owner to go away. The owner can’t prove they did something negligent. . It had flown like <20 hours since the previous annual.  

 

In a lawsuit, you don’t have to prove it. Its about the body count unfortunately, not the facts:

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=5fb16b92-9026-42b9-9583-f783a59cd8c0
 

[steingar]

The naïveté I’m reading in this thread is pretty amazing. You are liable for exactly what a lawyer can sue you for. Facts don’t matter even a little. I’m convinced juries wind up believing the guy with the biggest hair. No agreement, LLC, waiver or anything else will stand between one of these sharks and your assets. The only thing that will is your own shark.

Don’t assume just because you’ve been upstanding and conscientious that they can’t come after you. Some guy who’s airplane you fixed correctly gets drunk, runs out of gas and kills him self crashing into a day care. Someone will decide it’s because you fixed it wrong and everyone affected in that accident is entitled to your shit. This stuff happens folks.

[Oldguy]

13 hours ago, steingar said:

The naïveté I’m reading in this thread is pretty amazing. You are liable for exactly what a lawyer can sue you for. Facts don’t matter even a little. I’m convinced juries wind up believing the guy with the biggest hair. No agreement, LLC, waiver or anything else will stand between one of these sharks and your assets. The only thing that will is your own shark.

Don’t assume just because you’ve been upstanding and conscientious that they can’t come after you. Some guy who’s airplane you fixed correctly gets drunk, runs out of gas and kills him self crashing into a day care. Someone will decide it’s because you fixed it wrong and everyone affected in that accident is entitled to your shit. This stuff happens folks.

As one of our corporate attorneys said, "Truth, facts, and juries: get the last one on your side and the first two are irrelevant."

[jetdriven]

15 hours ago, steingar said:

The naïveté I’m reading in this thread is pretty amazing. You are liable for exactly what a lawyer can sue you for. Facts don’t matter even a little. I’m convinced juries wind up believing the guy with the biggest hair. No agreement, LLC, waiver or anything else will stand between one of these sharks and your assets. The only thing that will is your own shark.

Don’t assume just because you’ve been upstanding and conscientious that they can’t come after you. Some guy who’s airplane you fixed correctly gets drunk, runs out of gas and kills him self crashing into a day care. Someone will decide it’s because you fixed it wrong and everyone affected in that accident is entitled to your shit. This stuff happens folks.

Get yourself a $2 million umbrella policy and quit worrying about this stuff. How do you people enjoy their lives looking over their shoulder so much. If I were such a worrywart I wouldn’t have an airplane at all. Planes crash sometimes, people get killed..  motorcycles crash.  What bothers me the most is running over a pedestrian in this crowded city.We have a good insurance policy on the airplane, a good auto policy, we have an umbrella policy. try not to crash, enjoy your life. 
We had a friend who built a Rutan defiant and when he was done playing with it (it never stopped overheating), he chopped it up and threw it away. He said to avoid liability. Although I’ve never even heard of a successful or even the filing of a lawsuit against the homebuilder for negligent construction. Its like a made-up bogeyman that controls people’s major  life decisions.

[PMcClure]

15 hours ago, steingar said:

The naïveté I’m reading in this thread is pretty amazing. You are liable for exactly what a lawyer can sue you for. Facts don’t matter even a little. I’m convinced juries wind up believing the guy with the biggest hair. No agreement, LLC, waiver or anything else will stand between one of these sharks and your assets. The only thing that will is your own shark.

Don’t assume just because you’ve been upstanding and conscientious that they can’t come after you. Some guy who’s airplane you fixed correctly gets drunk, runs out of gas and kills him self crashing into a day care. Someone will decide it’s because you fixed it wrong and everyone affected in that accident is entitled to your shit. This stuff happens folks.

I agree 100%. All you can do is the best you can to avoid unnecessary risks, and get enough insurance to protect your assets if you have any.

[steingar]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

We had a friend who built a Rutan defiant and when he was done playing with it (it never stopped overheating), he chopped it up and threw it away. He said to avoid liability. Although I’ve never even heard of a successful or even the filing of a lawsuit against the homebuilder for negligent construction. Its like a made-up bogeyman that controls people’s major  life decisions.

Nothing made up about it.  Think about it this way, have Cessna, or Piper, or any of the other major manufacturers made unsafe aircraft?  I would answer no, most have been flying for decades and will continue to do so.  Yet liability claims agains aircraft manufacturers destroyed GA in the 80s.  Cessna stop making airplanes, Piper and Mooney both went bankrupt, it got real and stayed that way.

Your pal with the Defiant was the manufacturer.  The only thing I might have done differently is fly it for 18 years and THEN sell it.  GARA has an 18 year liability window.  Someone gets hurt enough and the sharks aren't going to stop at that 2 million dollar policy.  2 million is nothing in terms of ongoing medical care.  

You guys are right about one thing.  We can't live our lives in fear of this stuff.  But denying it its just an irrational belief in alternative facts.

[jetdriven]

OK lay some logic and math on me, what’s the likelihood of getting  sued  over and above your >1million umbrella policy? It happens I don’t deny that. But how often does it happen. I bet more pilots are  struck by lightning then get sued for 3 million bucks? 
Again with the defiant, the manufacturer, yes b. Everyone of these 10,000 RV airplanes out there flying are built by somebody else. How many of those guys got sued when they sold the plane And it crashed later. Because those airplanes are everywhere. But I never hear of these kind of lawsuits.

[steingar]

16 hours ago, jetdriven said:

But I never hear of these kind of lawsuits.

Haven't heard of them yet.  People weren't in the habit of suing aircraft manufacturers until they were.

[PMcClure]

The FAR's make it the owner/operator responsible for the condition of the plane. Not the mechanic or the previous owner. Selling a plane AS IS with a hold harmless should protect you against claims from the new owner, but not a 3rd party. Nothing to stop a lawyer from suing you anyway and you will be found liable for whatever the jury says. But I still think this is all an extremely small risk as long as you are not misrepresenting the plane or negligent in your actions. Having a MSC do a annual before you sell may put some of that liability on them. But if it were shown that you maintenance work or negligence caused the crash, you may have another party pursuing you. I hire my lawyers to protect me and inform me. But at the end of the day, I just have to live with a certain amount of risk and also have enough insurance to cover those risks. 

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

Haven't heard of them yet.  People weren't in the habit of suing aircraft manufacturers until they were.

There are web forum posts from 10 years ago on VAF about pilots  concerned about getting sued for selling their RV. So how long do I have to wait here, 15 years or is it more than that?  Hasnt Happened YET.  
Are you really trying to scare me about something that might happen in the future because it’s not happened now or in the past? This is like leaking Mooney bladders or insurance companies denying a claim beucause the ADF is missing a yellow tag. Lots of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but no evidence at all. That speaks for itself. 

[steingar]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

There are web forum posts from 10 years ago on VAF about pilots  concerned about getting sued for selling their RV. So how long do I have to wait here, 15 years or is it more than that?  Hasnt Happened YET.  
Are you really trying to scare me about something that might happen in the future because it’s not happened now or in the past? This is like leaking Mooney bladders or insurance companies denying a claim beucause the ADF is missing a yellow tag. Lots of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but no evidence at all. That speaks for itself. 

My thinking is most of us are immune.  We farm outer maintenance to folks with credentials, so if something happens I doubt anyone is going try and poach our assets.  However, if we're doing our own maintenance and things go south, I would  expect some shyster to start chasing the estate if there's enough estate to chase.  In my case there isn't, but someone may have enough to have that worry.

Now if you've built the darn thing, you're the manufacturer.  Something goes wrong, fingers are going to point at you pretty quick.  I really have to emphasize the "yet" in my post.  Experimentals used to be built from plans by die-hards.  Now there are more experimentals being built than factory aircraft.  The population is increasing, and a lot of these are go-fast aircraft that are fully acrobatic and make guys stupid just looking at them.  So I really emphasize the "yet", just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't, and once the precedent's set there will be a flood of them.  I think the guy who built the Defiant and then disassembled it was smart, protecting his assets.  

The only thing that will immunize you against this sort of suit is poverty.

[MooneyMitch]

“The only thing that will immunize you against this sort of suit is poverty.“

As Janis said, “freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose”  

[thinwing]

Two comments...Hangar friends decided to restore a Great Lakes Biplane.Took them two or three years with them and their friends doing all the fabric work and paint ,panel etc.Than they sold it and new buyer later found paint peeling requiring a recover...result nasty lawsuit that went nowhere.Second involved a high asset individual who donated a experimental GeeBee racer to Museum to avoid liability cause owner had already crashed it once.He realized more from the charitable deduction at his tax bracket than if he had gotten cash buyer