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M20e Turn coordinator space too small?


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So I bought a 66’ M20e and we’ve had it in the shop since then fixing a few things while the muffler is getting rebuilt.  I could use some info on the turn coordinator space..

I’m trying to find space for an EDM-730.  It’s the same price as the 700 with a better screen and functionality, but I need a little more space for it. In the attached picture you can see that turn coordinator is missing from above the pilot yoke and a replacement has been installed in what was once the glove box. My plan is to put the 730 in the glove box space and move the TC back to where it belongs since it is useless over there. 

My problem is there seems to be very little space in the original TC location because the yoke tube goes up at an angle behind the panel.  It doesn’t look like the electric TC in the glove box will fit there because of the length.  I suspect it’s in the glove box because it wouldn’t fit in the right location. 

Does anyone know how big of a instrument housing can fit behind the hole above the yoke?  I don’t want to take it all apart and it not fit and it’s crazy hard to measure assembled  

My other option is to ditch the old transponder, put the 730 there, and upgrade with a new transponder in the vacant lower spot in the radio stack. I don’t know if it works but it’s really cool and I’d like to keep it if I can. 

My last option is to just get a 700 and put it in the glove box by the TC. But I don’t want to spend as much for it as I would a 730 just because I can’t find space. 

Any other advice on how to proceed?  Kind of in a bind here  

 

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My panel had a sheet metal wedge on the DG to shim the instrument up and right of the yoke tube.  My DG was where your CDI is to the right of the yoke.  If the DG would have been mounted flush to my panel it would have interfered.  It was maybe 3/8” at it’s widest point, and was oriented from about 6:00 to 9:30?  You can almost make it out in the pic.  Painted black, I didn’t even notice the wedge was there.

tom

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Flying in IMC or VFR only?

Some things are worth spending the AMUs required to improve the layout of the instruments...

Its a piece of sheet metal.

Flying with a failed AI is a near emergency situation...

Following a worn TC may be impossible in turbulence... they flop around. Try it... :)

Find pictures of anyone that has eight instruments in two rows... note the center gap over the yokes...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or instrument guy...

Best regards,

-a-

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If your going to fly above 10K (NA mooneys like it 10 -12K ) or within 30 mile rings you need a new transponder anyway, stratus transponder with the stratus power and replace the cig lighter. JPI replaces your old transponder. I see this getting expensive very quickly good luck. 

If you need some replacement post lights for your plastic panel I might have some 

 

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When we bought our '67C it had a similar panel to yours.   Wanting to finish my instrument rating, the non-standard layout really didn't appeal to me, so I hatched a plan to replace the panel.   We had a local shop water jet a piece of aluminum with the desired instrument layout.   The interference problem arose, so I had my son 3-D print a shim that allowed us to lift the DG up to be parallel to the yoke.  Note the DG is slightly set back on its lower edge, that is the effect of the shim.   The cost for replacing your panel is not that high if you have skills and a friendly A&P IA.

 

new_panel_config.jpg

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Looking at these old shotgun panels gives me a headache. That turn coordinator in the right panel is absurd, but it may not matter much if you are not planning to use the plane IFR. Do you really need an HSI AND a separate DG on the left?  Maybe dump the DG assuming the HSI works? If you want to use the plane IFR in the future, then at least cutting a new left panel before doing any new installs would be worth it.  You would enjoy having the 730 on the left too if you could find the space, which would be easy to do with a new left panel laid out with IFR in mind.  

 

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For now I think I’m going to put the EDM in the transponder hole and later I’ll get an ADS-B transponder and put it at the bottom of the radio stack. I’ll revisit this later and get some custom panels made. Just trying to get it back in the air for now. 

Edited by Nukemzzz
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On 1/18/2020 at 12:17 PM, 0TreeLemur said:

When we bought our '67C it had a similar panel to yours.   Wanting to finish my instrument rating, the non-standard layout really didn't appeal to me, so I hatched a plan to replace the panel.   We had a local shop water jet a piece of aluminum with the desired instrument layout.   The interference problem arose, so I had my son 3-D print a shim that allowed us to lift the DG up to be parallel to the yoke.  Note the DG is slightly set back on its lower edge, that is the effect of the shim.   The cost for replacing your panel is not that high if you have skills and a friendly A&P IA.

 

new_panel_config.jpg

Nice tidy panel installation.

Clarence

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There are a lot of strange design decisions in the panel on these planes. I suspect it has something to do with the size of old instruments.  That old transponder has a box behind the panel as big as a modern PC tower  

One thing that really bugs me is how the labels for the switches under the pilot side panel can’t be seen. I think all the switches need to be flipped 180. 

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On 1/18/2020 at 12:58 PM, Yetti said:

I'd redo that panel over there on the copilot side.   Move the CB and switches down to the lower right edge.  Rotate the ELT remote and you will have tons of space.   

On second look that is the audio panel.   It should rotate horizontal and the vertical faceplate is on the backside.

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3 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

There are a lot of strange design decisions in the panel on these planes. I suspect it has something to do with the size of old instruments.  That old transponder has a box behind the panel as big as a modern PC tower  

One thing that really bugs me is how the labels for the switches under the pilot side panel can’t be seen. I think all the switches need to be flipped 180. 


when you can’t see the labels....

This is often called panel sag...

A few pieces of new hardware lifts the panel back to where it was in the 60s.

Making the labels at least readable to some... puts them back into the line of sight... won’t improve your need for special glasses... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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9 hours ago, carusoam said:


when you can’t see the labels....

This is often called panel sag...

A few pieces of new hardware lifts the panel back to where it was in the 60s.

Making the labels at least readable to some... puts them back into the line of sight... won’t improve your need for special glasses... :)

Best regards,

-a-

To clarify, what I mean is the labels are under the switches and so you can’t read them because the switch lever is in the way. They can only be read when In the up position which is “on”.   I look like a parrot jerking my neck at funny angles trying to confirm I have the right one. Lol

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5 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

To clarify, what I mean is the labels are under the switches and so you can’t read them because the switch lever is in the way. They can only be read when In the up position which is “on”.   I look like a parrot jerking my neck at funny angles trying to confirm I have the right one. Lol

FWIW, I went to the auto parts store and bought an assortment of vacuum line caps that came in various colors and color-coded my switches.  It seems easier for me to remember the color than the position.

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On 1/17/2020 at 8:15 PM, Nukemzzz said:

 

Does anyone know how big of a instrument housing can fit behind the hole above the yoke?  I don’t want to take it all apart and it not fit and it’s crazy hard to measure assembled  

 

I can't really say about the spacing now (I'm at work) but my panel has an 2.25" VSI at that space and not TC. It barely fits as it's end almost touching the tube. If you could find online the length of small VSI, you could compare it to your TC. I believe VSI will be shorter then TC but I have no way of comforting that.

I will try to measure my VSI this weekend if i remember it and will post it here.

 

Edited by Igor_U
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This TC is 5 inches long. 
 

Transponder and old EGT are out. Engine monitor fits nicely in the transponder spot. Lots of old avionics wires back there. Plugs that don’t go to anything. When it’s time to install the new transponder later this year I’ll ask the avionics guy to pull the un-needed stuff. With the low M20e useful load...I don’t need to be carrying extra stuff around. Lol

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I just can't imagine doing all that work and still having a scatter shot panel. 

A few evenings at your own computer with an EAA version of Solid Works (free) and you can lay out a clean modern up to date panel. Put the file on a USB stick and take it to a metal shop. $50 later you'll have a new left side panel. Another $50 for a quick spray of primer and paint and you're done. Walk it into the shop doing all this work and ask them to install it. Figure another two hours of labor to do the job.

This is an easy and cheap job that you can largely do yourself. It will make it feel like a new airplane.

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Nuke...

Just an FYI...

That’s not a TC you have there...

That is the original 60s version called a TnB...

TCs are crummy BU devices for lost AIs... TnBs are notably worse.

 

See how that device holds up when the air gets bumpy... probably unfollowable...

It would be better to have a D10 mounted to your panel than have that thing to keep the sunny side up...

 

Of course this is mostly an IFR/IMC discussion... if not flying in the clouds... the windows and top of the glare shield work pretty well at keeping the sunny side up...:)

If you have a vaccuum driven AI... expect a vacuum failure and the AI to stop working at least once during your ownership... have a real good plan B in place for that day...

 PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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The left panel isn’t too difficult to fabricate and install.  You can use Paul’s suggestion above if you’re good with computers etc.  
 

When I’ve done them I bought a section of plexiglass larger than the current instrument panel to make a pattern.  Remove the existing panel and trace the shape onto the plexiglass then cut it to shape, carefully drill the mounting holes into the plexiglass.  Mount the plexiglass panel to the airframe.  Layout the instruments in the configuration you want.  Being clear you can look for conflicts with items behind the panel and can adjust your layout accordingly. Once your layout is settled you can drill the holes with a 3-1/8” and 2-1/4” hole saw and trial fit your instruments, again adjust if required.  Once finalized you can do the electronic layout and have your new panel cut.

If you’re going to make the new panel yourself, I wouldn’t use hole saws to cut the holes as they aren’t usually accurate enough, I’ve use instrument panel hole punch set.  Your local EAA chapter may have one.
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/inpages/ats123chole.php?clickkey=20164

I did this on both of my E models and in both cases made the panel flat and only had to shim the bottom of the Narco HSI to clear the control column shaft.

Good luck,

Clarence

 

 

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All good suggestions which I'll follow up on at a later date.  The plane is down because of the muffler failure primarily.  New muffler and headers just arrived. 

While waiting for that to resolve I investigated why the EGT wasn't working and it's because of the ancient 4 position mechanical gage.  I ordered an EDM-730 instead of trying to fix or replace the old EGT gage.  While pulling that I pulled the massive transponder to make room for the 730. 

My plan at the moment is to call it good enough for now and get it all put back together because I need to get the engine running again.  It's been without oil for 3 weeks now and it should be ready to fire again in about week so I don't have time to upgrade the full panel layout at this time.  I.E. I don't want the panel to be the pacing item.

Thanks for the advice

Side note... maybe the easiest thing to do is to ask one of you guys to send me your plexi glass template so I can copy it.  lol

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