kmyfm20s Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 I flew from San Diego to Las Vegas yesterday (1/9) for a meeting I had at CES. I have always heard stories of people getting incredibly rapid buildup of ice over San Diego but in my 20 years of flying have never seen it. As you can see I experienced some ice. I was in and out of the clouds climbing over over Ramona(KRNM) airport to Julian(JLI) VOR. The bottom 2 photos were taken only 4 minutes apart and that much ice collected. Wow! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyMitch Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Yikes! I've never experienced that amount of ice in my airplane. Exciting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted January 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 A sobering experience and a lesson to take action immediately because it can get ugly quick! I told the controller I was collecting ice and I needed higher sooner than latter. They held me at that altitude for only a short period but it seemed like forever. I thought I was going to have to declare an emergency to climb but they cleared me in time. I knew the tops were only 500’ above me and I know I had outs left and right of me but when the ice collects that fast it gets you pretty nervous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyMitch Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Yep, I was right seat in a King Air and we ran into ice. Windscreen and leading edges iced over in a flash! I was surprised how rapidly that happened. Congratulations on success . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, kmyfm20s said: A sobering experience and a lesson to take action immediately because it can get ugly quick! I told the controller I was collecting ice and I needed higher sooner than latter. They held me at that altitude for only a short period but it seemed like forever. I thought I was going to have to declare an emergency to climb but they cleared me in time. I knew the tops were only 500’ above me and I know I had outs left and right of me but when the ice collects that fast it gets you pretty nervous. Top of the cloud is usually the worst spot. Know where the freezing level is because it will come off even faster than it came on if you can get to air even 1 degree above freezing. Yeah, declare if you need to, that’s not a good spot to be in because if it keeps building you’ll quickly lose climb capability and may only have one way to go! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Really interesting pics! how the ice decides to pile up the way it does... Not affected by the stall strips... but the landing/taxi lights change things locally... Thanks for sharing the pics, and the rest of the details. Add that to Ron and Skips aerodynamic discussion... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiny moose Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 Remember when you see it on your wings its everywhere else also, smaller edges and antennas tail will a accumulate faster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 49 minutes ago, carusoam said: Really interesting pics! how the ice decides to pile up the way it does... Not affected by the stall strips... but the landing/taxi lights change things locally... Not so if you change to LED lights . . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austintatious Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 I think you are doing a disservice to to ice "building fast".... One of the most scary flights I was on was in a Citation going into Eagle. I got into severe Icing and the ice didn't "build" fast... I got SMACKED with an inch at a time in .0001 seconds. It was like flying through a waterfall of super cooled water. Got hit about 3 times in a short period. The windshield heat couldnt keep up. The boots were not shedding it all. Had I not gotten out of it and taken 1 or 2 more hits, it could have been real bad. The nose looked like rock candy and the ice was about 4-5 inches thick at the very tip. I found the pics.... Keep in mind, this ice was accumulated in 2-3 shots that were for all intents and purposes INSTANT. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmo Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 @Austintatious - do you recall what OAT / type of cloud you got this in? Something anyone would ever venture into in a Mooney? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Austintatious said: I think you are doing a disservice to to ice "building fast".... One of the most scary flights I was on was in a Citation going into Eagle. I got into severe Icing and the ice didn't "build" fast... I got SMACKED with an inch at a time in .0001 seconds. It was like flying through a waterfall of super cooled water. Got hit about 3 times in a short period. The windshield heat couldnt keep up. The boots were not shedding it all. Had I not gotten out of it and taken 1 or 2 more hits, it could have been real bad. The nose looked like rock candy and the ice was about 4-5 inches thick at the very tip. I found the pics.... Keep in mind, this ice was accumulated in 2-3 shots that were for all intents and purposes INSTANT. Geez... I don’t think there’s an ice protection system in existence that would prevent that... where was that? Eagle, Idaho? Edited January 11, 2020 by M016576 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Austintatious said: I think you are doing a disservice to to ice "building fast".... One of the most scary flights I was on was in a Citation going into Eagle. I got into severe Icing and the ice didn't "build" fast... I got SMACKED with an inch at a time in .0001 seconds. I once did something dumb on summer day about 10 years ago. One beautiful summer day with a few isolated and not so big cumulus clouds and I was on an IFR flight plan I held course and let myself fly through the tippy top of a cumulus cloud that was only like 10 seconds worth to fly through clip through that top bit. Boy I learned that even a little cumulus like that is not something to go through. It was like a washing machine in there. It was very turbulent, and raining very very hard pelting the airplane and the temp had dropped dramatically in that few seconds, and when I got through the other side I realize it was just just like you said. I had collected a shockingly large amount of ice for like 10 seconds - it had not been normal rain but super cooled rain. It had just gone splat iced my airplane instantly. Luckily I was mostly in VFR and once out of the cloud it was above freezing and a little decent even more so. But still - yikes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) As for ice - and super cooled water droplets - we are all preparing here in the North Country of NY State Adirondacks region for "Icemegadon" that is bearing down on us. Right now it is crazy warm for Jan, at 55F. It is supposed to rain water 1'' of rain this afternoon and then transition to below freezing air, and still pouring rain, but freezing rain, and forecasts are for 1'' to 2'' of ice - tonight. Never saw a super cooled rain event like that where it intensely pours rain for hours. Usually it is a brief transition period as a narrow zone of the front passes through In 1998 it rained freezing rain lightly over 6 days and here it accumulated 3'' of ice on everything, which destroyed the power grid through the North Country and a lot of Ontario and Quebec. https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/storm-century https://epod.usra.edu/blog/2005/03/quebec-ice-storm.html Now we might get almost the same in just a few hours - Hopefully forecasts are exaggerated. If I still have internet tomorrow - I will post some pics of ice world. Just went to the airport and got my little generator out, tested fueled up and primed. Edited January 11, 2020 by aviatoreb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvesg Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 We are getting ready here too. Have 10 gallons of fresh fuel for the emergency power generator, 1 1/2 cord of wood for the fireplace. Food for a couple of days. Cheers. Yves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 minute ago, yvesg said: We are getting ready here too. Have 10 gallons of fresh fuel for the emergency power generator, 1 1/2 cord of wood for the fireplace. Food for a couple of days. Cheers. Yves Hang in there Yves! We only have the little tiny 1000W generator but I figure it is enough to run the critical items. But we also have a nice big wood burning stove that we run night and day in the winter anyway, and about 15 cords of wood as in normal course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austintatious Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, M016576 said: Geez... I don’t think there’s an ice protection system in existence that would prevent that... where was that? Eagle, Idaho? this was going into KEGE. It was very scary... I dont think you guys understand... this was not "fast" it was INSTANT. WHAP-- inches of ice. Cloud base with clear vis was 300 feet below where this happened. If I had been in a mooney, ohh well, I don't want to think about that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 NJ is experiencing temps in the 50°F range... with thunderstorms in the forecast... Good luck to the guys in the North. Super cooled water only takes fractions of a second to get crystal initiation and lots of thick ice forms quickly... Have a plan, know where to go to escape... execute the plan... do not wait... Great pics, Austin! Thanks for sharing the details... And no... propellers and that much ice is bad... the airframe gaining weight is a bad WnB problem... the wings changing shape is a problem... Then there is the un-even shedding of ice... also bad... Mooneys and this much ice would be extremely bad... It really is important to know the weather before flying. Especially, downwind of large bodies of water...that are not frozen over yet... Looks like the moisture is coming all the way up from the Gulf of Mexico then running into cold air in Canada... Call that the perfect Ice storm... PP thoughts only, not a weatherman... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elimansour Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 An icing encounter is indeed quite sobering. On a recent PC12 flight out of KMCO in raining / cold front conditions while we were climbing through 16000 for FL280 (tops were reported around FL230), we got into a severe icing layer and the speed and effect was dramatic. First the plane turned into an ice magnet - the ice did not build on the wings, but rather it felt (and sounded) like it was hitting the whole plane in mass quantities from all directions. Looking at the wing (sorry no pictures...I was a bit preoccupied) it turned from a light dusting from before that was easily managed with 3 min. boots to a jagged snow-coned heap with minimal effect by 1 min. boots. The side windshields started to fill up as well and we went from a climb rate of 1500+ fpm to less than 300 fpm...all in a couple of minutes. Needless to say we had to get out ASAP and only option was to descend. Luckily northeastern FL is fairly flat and we descended fast to 8000 for positive temps and the ice all just came off in massive sheets. We slogged through the rain below till there was a clearing to get back higher. I had never been in severe icing before and it really was pretty wild how quickly and thoroughly the plane got smacked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austintatious Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 2 hours ago, tmo said: @Austintatious - do you recall what OAT / type of cloud you got this in? Something anyone would ever venture into in a Mooney? It was about 15 years ago... no I do not remember the temps. There were no thunderstorms I know that. It was the busy seasons with slots in effect. We got routed south of EGE and then north past rifle. We then went to RLG and were outbound on the 184 ... that is where we got plastered. There is more to the story I didnt share, but it is a good one. This was my first time going to EGE during the busy season. I did not know the captain that I was with. I called him the day before and told him I was unfamiliar with routing and slots. He assured me he was and that we were good to go. Looking at mostly direct routing I could see that we should have plenty of fuel to make it. However with the crazy routing we got on arrival, passing WAY south of EGE and then going North over Rifle then to RLG and in on the approach, we didn't. We passed over rifle with 500 lbs per side, the normal reserves for that aircraft. I suggested we just land at Rifle, we were in the clear and low on gas... he wouldn't have it, crazy because we didnt even have passengers onboard, no one would have been mad about an unplanned fuel stop. We kept going. On the 184 radial from RLG about 5-6 miles from VOXA, we got hit with icing I had never imagined at 14000 feet. WHAP! 2+ inches. The Captain started popping the boots repeatedly ( stupid) and I think that they were inflated when we got hit the 2nd time. That is why some of it didn't shed. I was listening to the ATIS and I knew the cloud base was only 300 feet below us. However due to another aircraft ahead of us, ATC was not clearing us for the approach. We got closer and closer to Aqula on the approach but were not cleared. The LOW FUEL lights were on ( 250 lbs per side, half normal reserve) and we were COVERED in ice... no vis out the front window at all. Capt turned on the windshield alcohol, which is really an ANTI ice measure, not De-ice. Im telling him that we need to go down to get out of this. ATC still has not cleared us.... Less than 1 mile from VOXA with no approach clearance he grabs the hand mic and tells ATC " WE ARE DIVERTING TO RIFLE". I turn to him and say " LIKE HELL WE ARE, WE HAVE NO FUEL!".... Right then atc comes back, clears us for the approach as we cross Aqula. We turn and descend and just as expected, 300 feet lower we were in clear VFR weather. We had been hit 3 times by instant ice... They were spread out by about 1-2 min each time. Just as we would start to see the windshield begin to clear we were hit again. Once we broke out, we kept flying the approach because we couldn't see out the window. I ask " how are we going to land?" he said, Im just gonna have to look out the side window. He did do one thing right and kept the speed up a bit on approach. As we got lower the windshield alcohol managed to melt through some of the ice. he was able to land looking through a very narrow portion of the front window... about 4 inches wide coming from the center of the pilots window and moving up and left at about a 45 degree angle. I was scared and MAD. There was another pilot in the back that I knew better than this guy. THat pilot and I always mention that flight every time we see one another. i am really mad that I did not take better pictures. the ones you see I took about 30 min after landing. The other pilot and some line guys had already broken a lot of what was still on the boots off. I took the pic of the wingtip so that you could see how much it protruded forward against the wingtip light guard.... but the reality is that at least half the wing had that much ice on it. The picture of the nose does the situation no justice at all... I needed to take that pic from farther back. That ice is at least 4 inches thick. Fly safe! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyMitch Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 55 minutes ago, Austintatious said: this was going into KEGE. It was very scary... I dont think you guys understand... this was not "fast" it was INSTANT. WHAP-- inches of ice. Cloud base with clear vis was 300 feet below where this happened. If I had been in a mooney, ohh well, I don't want to think about that. This is similar to my King Air experience....... not to your degree of thickness, but definitely instantly. It was startling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 16 hours ago, kmyfm20s said: A sobering experience and a lesson to take action immediately because it can get ugly quick! I told the controller I was collecting ice and I needed higher sooner than latter. They held me at that altitude for only a short period but it seemed like forever. I thought I was going to have to declare an emergency to climb but they cleared me in time. I knew the tops were only 500’ above me and I know I had outs left and right of me but when the ice collects that fast it gets you pretty nervous. That much ice on a single engine airplane with no ice protection is an emergency. The short time that they kept you at that altitude could have been disastrous. If I would have looked out and seen that my first word on the radio would have been “Mayday”, then “N12345 is declaring an emergency since we picked up significant ice in the climb - we are deviating from our clearance and going (climb/descend) to ______.“ That PIREP also would maybe have kept others from going through the same thing. I think declaring an emergency early is a good thing rather than running out of options. Glad it turned out ok for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted January 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: That much ice on a single engine airplane with no ice protection is an emergency. The short time that they kept you at that altitude could have been disastrous. If I would have looked out and seen that my first word on the radio would have been “Mayday”, then “N12345 is declaring an emergency since we picked up significant ice in the climb - we are deviating from our clearance and going (climb/descend) to ______.“ That PIREP also would maybe have kept others from going through the same thing. I think declaring an emergency early is a good thing rather than running out of options. Glad it turned out ok for you. Your seeing the end result of the ice buildup in the pictures. I wasn’t just lumbering along watching ice collect, I did take action. I wasn’t alarmed to the degree of declaring an emergency in the bottom picture but did not want to stay at that altitude when I knew there was clear air all around me, above, left, right and below. I post this to share with others so people to realize to take action. The majority of the buildup on the way out after I was already cleared for higher. When I asked ATC for my climb sooner than latter the ice was like the bottom picture but could see and hear it started collecting at a much faster rate. If they didn’t clear me when they did I would have declared an emergency. I did give a PIREP after. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted January 11, 2020 Report Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, kmyfm20s said: Your seeing the end result of the ice buildup in the pictures. I wasn’t just lumbering along watching ice collect, I did take action. I wasn’t alarmed to the degree of declaring an emergency in the bottom picture but did not want to stay at that altitude when I knew there was clear air all around me, above, left, right and below. I post this to share with others so people to realize to take action. The majority of the buildup on the way out after I was already cleared for higher. When I asked ATC for my climb sooner than latter the ice was like the bottom picture but could see and hear it started collecting at a much faster rate. If they didn’t clear me when they did I would have declared an emergency. I did give a PIREP after. Again, please don't take it the wrong way, all of us are glad you are here to tell about it and none of us thought you were up there unconcerned lumbering along collecting ice. I was just responding to one part of your experience: I told the controller I was collecting ice and I needed higher sooner than latter. They held me at that altitude for only a short period but it seemed like forever. I thought I was going to have to declare an emergency to climb but they cleared me in time. Asking for another altitude and waiting for him to let you know takes time. Declaring an emergency is not going to get you in trouble and it actually takes you and the Controller off the hook. It allows you to deviate as you see necessary and just telling him what you are doing now allows him to get other traffic away from you. It also puts you #1 on the priority list for ATC. How much ice will a Mooney take before it won't fly is something I never want to find out. The safety record in GA would be better if emergencies were declared sooner rather than later. Again thanks for sharing it with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted January 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said: Again, please don't take it the wrong way, all of us are glad you are here to tell about it and none of us thought you were up there unconcerned lumbering along collecting ice. I was just responding to one part of your experience: I told the controller I was collecting ice and I needed higher sooner than latter. They held me at that altitude for only a short period but it seemed like forever. I thought I was going to have to declare an emergency to climb but they cleared me in time. Asking for another altitude and waiting for him to let you know takes time. Declaring an emergency is not going to get you in trouble and it actually takes you and the Controller off the hook. It allows you to deviate as you see necessary and just telling him what you are doing now allows him to get other traffic away from you. It also puts you #1 on the priority list for ATC. How much ice will a Mooney take before it won't fly is something I never want to find out. The safety record in GA would be better if emergencies were declared sooner rather than later. Again thanks for sharing it with us. If you don’t want me to take it the wrong way then make it less about me and more about icing related to airplanes. I was comfortable with my decisions. Go ahead and highlight and dissect all my sentences you want but you don’t know the time between my thoughts, communication and when the actions all occurred. Nothing would have changed the outcome in my particular situation. I recommend people take immediate action when in ice and these pictures demonstrate that. Look at the first photo. The forecast didn’t have icing at that altitude, the patch of clouds was relatively small, the temperatures dropped rapidly in the clouds and I picked up a significant amount of ice quickly. I was lucky, I had clear air a short distance all around me and I had a nice warm dessert floor with a runway in front and below me. It turned out very well and a hell of a learning experience for me! I don’t even want to comment on how my plane performed because I wouldn’t want to promote flying with ice on the wings without TKS. I posted this to share for others to learn how fast ice can form even in conditions that you would not expect it. I hope my experience helps other in the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted January 12, 2020 Report Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) This is probably the best thread on icing I’ve seen in the 10 or so years I’ve been “lurking” mooneyspace. It has descriptions of a situation that looks innocuous, but shows just how critical it could become in the winter time. The descriptions and pictures of the speed at which the ice builds, and the ultimate possibility. Of SLD exposure. I really wish there were more threads like this, but I’m willing to bet that people who have had similar experiences are afraid of posting for fear that they would be raked over the coals... or for fear of enforcement action. Regardless, I greatly appreciate this thread, and the information and honesty of both @kmyfm20s and @Austintatious: I believe this information can help all mooney pilots (TKS equipped or not) make safer decisions Edited January 12, 2020 by M016576 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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