Ripley98

Any 40:1 landing gear conversion gears for sale?

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Trying to find the gear set to convert my 20:1 1976 m20f to the 40:1 ratio. I tried calling several places including the factory and no one seems to have them. Any suggestions?

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Trying to find the gear set to convert my 20:1 1976 m20f to the 40:1 ratio. I tried calling several places including the factory and no one seems to have them. Any suggestions?

Funny you mention that. I’d like to do the same on my F. Following


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Don Maxwell did mine and I expect he could write a paper on it.  I am sure they could help.  Maxwell Aviation, Longview, Tx

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2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Don Maxwell did mine and I expect he could write a paper on it.  I am sure they could help.  Maxwell Aviation, Longview, Tx

KGGG.

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I have been on a waiting list with Lasar for about a year.  They have no idea when (and at this point if) sets will come in.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, TTaylor said:

I have been on a waiting list with Lasar for about a year.  They have no idea when (and at this point if) sets will come in.

 

 

That's not good for those of us with 40:1 today than may need maintenance. But then again there have been times in the past when gears were not available and they became available again. At what they charge I'm sure there will not be a shortage of suppliers. Its not like Mooney manufactured them.

-Robert

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Like most things in the Mooney it is standard industrial parts adapted to aviation.  

If only someone had a picture that would lead to a clue.20170201_214559.thumb.jpg.00490193c90296ade85a36100c28a387.jpg

OMG then a little Google FU.

Turns up Boston Gear   https://www.bostongear.com/

Which does drive reduction and right angle drives.    Someone should chat with them.  Ask how they identify their drives and then buy a bunch of gears.

 

 

Edited by Yetti
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Like most things in the Mooney it is standard aviation parts adapted to aviation.  
If only someone had a picture that would lead to a clue.20170201_214559.thumb.jpg.00490193c90296ade85a36100c28a387.jpg
OMG then a little Google FU.
Turns up Boston Gear   https://www.bostongear.com/
Which does drive reduction and right angle drives.    Someone should chat with them.  Ask how they identify their drives and then buy a bunch of gears.
 
 

Yes, definitely something to look into. When mine goes in for inspection I most likely will be doing something along that route.
Unfortunately with the factory shutdown I’m afraid some of the problems like these are left in our own hands to deal with.


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You would need the specifications and data sheet from the factory to reproduce them.  You would also need the material type (steel, hardening process, etc...).

You likely could reproduce them as an owner made part.  This would allow an owner to make them for one airplane, not for resale.  Perhaps if enough owners can be assembled to make one part for their airplane, not for resale, but do it all at once, making a set to put on the shelf, it could be accomplished.  The manufacturer will want to produce a given quantity to make it worth their while.

John Breda

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I have a set 40:1 gears at the hangar. They are an older set with a shorter inspection interval. I will be out there today. I’ll try to remember to take a picture of them.

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4 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

You would need the specifications and data sheet from the factory to reproduce them.  You would also need the material type (steel, hardening process, etc...).

You likely could reproduce them as an owner made part.  This would allow an owner to make them for one airplane, not for resale.  Perhaps if enough owners can be assembled to make one part for their airplane, not for resale, but do it all at once, making a set to put on the shelf, it could be accomplished.  The manufacturer will want to produce a given quantity to make it worth their while.

John Breda

Why make them?  There is the OEM supplier to buy them from.  Boston Gear.

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2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Why make them?  There is the OEM supplier to buy them from.  Boston Gear.

Those are bevel gears. Doesn’t the Dukes actuator use worm gears?

sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf

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I own a manual gear Mooney, so I really don’t know how that system works, but I am assuming that the 40:1 and 20:1 systems are for the manual back up system for the electric gear.  The electric system most likely uses worm gears as they can handle higher torque than beveled gears.  Boston Gear has been around for a long time and if the part numbers can be identified, the basic gears can be purchased. That doesn’t mean you’re done, Mooneyes subcontractor may have modified the gears thru hole to mount to the shafts they picked.  Also, not only will the beveled gears ware the bearings may need to be replaced.  Still very straight forward stuff.

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3 hours ago, Yetti said:

Why make them?  There is the OEM supplier to buy them from.  Boston Gear.

Do you know that Boston Gear is the source?  If so, then they may be able to supply the gears.  Do not be surprised however if they are supplying a given end product only to Mooney as an OEM part.

John Breda

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57 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Those are bevel gears. Doesn’t the Dukes actuator use worm gears?

sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf 744.88 kB · 1 download

The 40:1 gears in question are a steel worm gear and a bronze/brass looking pinion gear.  I think the ones above are part of the manual extension system.

Clarence

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Was talking to the owner of a machine shop yesterday that often makes parts for vintage aircraft and aerospace applications.   They use a service that can do the analysis on a part and tell you the hardness, alloy, any plating present, etc., etc., essentially everything you'd need to know about the material to recreate the part.   From that point most gears are somewhat standardized in size, pitch, etc., and it is unusual to find a gear that is not of some standardized or common dimensional characteristics.  If one wasn't available off the shelf somewhere, it could be recreated from existing, known drawings.

The analysis process that they use is destructive, i.e., they'll take a small chunk out of the sample supplied in order to analyze it, and he mentioned it typically costs about $800 to do this and get the results.

For parts that are going for more than an AMU or are just generally unobtanium, this could be practical if spread out over a few units.    It'd only need to be done once if the results are made available to other users.   Sharing the drawing (maybe not even for free) of the reverse-engineered part would allow any owner to take that drawing to a fabricator and have a part made from the proper materials with the proper dimensions.    The parts can't be sold, but I don't know of a restriction on somebody recouping an investment in reverse-engineering by selling the data to owners.

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1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Was talking to the owner of a machine shop yesterday that often makes parts for vintage aircraft and aerospace applications.   They use a service that can do the analysis on a part and tell you the hardness, alloy, any plating present, etc., etc., essentially everything you'd need to know about the material to recreate the part.   From that point most gears are somewhat standardized in size, pitch, etc., and it is unusual to find a gear that is not of some standardized or common dimensional characteristics.  If one wasn't available off the shelf somewhere, it could be recreated from existing, known drawings.

The analysis process that they use is destructive, i.e., they'll take a small chunk out of the sample supplied in order to analyze it, and he mentioned it typically costs about $800 to do this and get the results.

For parts that are going for more than an AMU or are just generally unobtanium, this could be practical if spread out over a few units.    It'd only need to be done once if the results are made available to other users.   Sharing the drawing (maybe not even for free) of the reverse-engineered part would allow any owner to take that drawing to a fabricator and have a part made from the proper materials with the proper dimensions.    The parts can't be sold, but I don't know of a restriction on somebody recouping an investment in reverse-engineering by selling the data to owners.

Interesting idea. It's not clear who presently owns the intellectual property for the gears. It might be necessary to get some drawings made from a set. The material notes could be added after the destructive testing. That would, of course, add to the cost. It would be up to an A&P to agree that the reverse engineering was good enough to sign off the installation of owner produced parts from the drawings, but I would think that a reasonable person would. Without a PMA you couldn't legally manufacture and sell the parts. Not sure about selling the drawings. Also not sure about liability issues if you sold the drawings.

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23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Interesting idea. It's not clear who presently owns the intellectual property for the gears. It might be necessary to get some drawings made from a set. The material notes could be added after the destructive testing. That would, of course, add to the cost. It would be up to an A&P to agree that the reverse engineering was good enough to sign off the installation of owner produced parts from the drawings, but I would think that a reasonable person would. Without a PMA you couldn't legally manufacture and sell the parts. Not sure about selling the drawings. Also not sure about liability issues if you sold the drawings.

Reverse engineering is not steeling IP. I’m pretty sure that has been decided in court.

FYI EVERYBODY,  I posted the gear pictures in another topic by mistake. 

The Dukes actuator has both bevel gears and ring and pinion. I’ve never heard of an issue with the bevel gears.

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26 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Reverse engineering is not steeling IP. I’m pretty sure that has been decided in court.

FYI EVERYBODY,  I posted the gear pictures in another topic by mistake. 

The Dukes actuator has both bevel gears and ring and pinion. I’ve never heard of an issue with the bevel gears.

I'm no a lawyer, but I can't see any legal issue with reverse engineering unless you are infringing on a patent. Years ago Chips and Technology built their first PC graphics chip by photomicrographing a Motorola chip layer by layer and then tracing out the schematic! My comment about liability was meant to refer to product liability if one were to sell the drawings and a part made from them subsequently failed. Probably not an issue -- homebuilders have been selling plans for entire airplanes forever. 

Skip

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6 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The 40:1 gears in question are a steel worm gear and a bronze/brass looking pinion gear.  I think the ones above are part of the manual extension system.

Clarence

Ah the right angle drive (probably made by Boston Gear, since the gear in mine says Boston Gear.), connects to the gears in question (worm gears) that run a lead screw.   Nothing can go wrong there.

Boston Gear also makes worm gears.  And worm gears have a locking ability.

https://www.bostongear.com/-/media/Files/Literature/Brand/boston-gear/catalogs/p-1930-bg-sections/p-1930-bg_engineering-info-worms-and-worm-gears.ashx

 

Edited by Yetti

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3 hours ago, PT20J said:

I'm no a lawyer, but I can't see any legal issue with reverse engineering unless you are infringing on a patent. Years ago Chips and Technology built their first PC graphics chip by photomicrographing a Motorola chip layer by layer and then tracing out the schematic! My comment about liability was meant to refer to product liability if one were to sell the drawings and a part made from them subsequently failed. Probably not an issue -- homebuilders have been selling plans for entire airplanes forever. 

Skip

Any patents involved in any of this stuff would have expired long ago.   Trade secrets are not protected from reverse engineering.  Avoiding trademarks is pretty easy if you don't duplicate logos, etc.   Copyrights don't really apply here, as long as text or graphics aren't duplicated.   Did I miss anything?  ;)

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So...

Don’t be surprised if you need to dig deeper...

Many machine companies have been known to buy a part commercially, then machine additional details into it to finish it for their use...

An example, where Mooney has done this... the original sniffle valve for the IO360s... it is a standard elbow that gets machine to add a retaining pin for a plastic ball... making it a one way valve...

Externally it looks like a simple elbow... until you look closer...

Check all the details before relying on a part number...

PP thoughts only, not a machinist...

Best regards,

-a-

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On 1/12/2020 at 1:02 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Reverse engineering is not steeling IP. I’m pretty sure that has been decided in court.

FYI EVERYBODY,  I posted the gear pictures in another topic by mistake. 

The Dukes actuator has both bevel gears and ring and pinion. I’ve never heard of an issue with the bevel gears.

In fact I've been on a reverse engineering team before. In the end we just use it as leverage to lower the licensing cost after we showed we didn't need them. Only rule was that no one on the team could have previous had access to information via a non-disclosure. A team of lawyers were involved.

 

-Robert

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