Oscar Avalle

Mooney factory closed again

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The companies ops specs for an IFR program on their S76 would require 6mo recurrent training and additional maintenance requirements for the aircraft. The lack of the ops spec prevented them from being able to file IFR. Best guess to ad ops IFR specs would cost 100k a year more to the operator. 
Weather in LA is pretty good...most of the time.

Still really sad,

-Matt

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I’ve gotten into IIMC (or rather have been unable to maintain VFR) a few times - all when rated and current.  First was when I filed going from BOS to PIT. Didn’t want a tour of the northern suburbs so got a class B transit and went VFR.  Got into an area of little snow squalls just under the EWR class B arrivals stream and visibility dropped to 3SM or so.  Got a pop up IFR from NY approach once clear of the arrivals and on my merry way.  Let the controller know in advance what was going on, what I wanted and when (I’m not going to be able to maintain VFR in xx miles) and they were accommodating.  If I can get a pop up under the EWR arrival stream I’m not sure why pilots are so hesitant to call up and ask for a hand when needed. 

Another time when got into smoke.  Just gradual decline in visibility over the course of several miles until there wasn’t a horizon anymore.  Ended up not filing but reporting a pirep cause we were out of it just as fast. 

Another I recall was a night flight cross country into Boston - flying along no clouds great forecast and all of a sudden I’m in a layer.  I recall another pop up need with layer pushing down and  filing over delmar peninsula.  

The common theme for all these flights were that the conditions were worse than forecast or unforecast.  Plus minus night flight.  All long cross country flights across weather systems or regions.  It’s a sneaky siren song and sometimes surprising.  Without an instrument rating you wouldn’t necessarily expose yourself to conditions that could have a chance of IMC (but we see VFR pilots do that anyway).  I’d probably be d e d in each of those scenarios if I didn’t have instrument proficiency.  

I think the threshold for level of concern for instrument rated pilots is naturally lower- but it’s still staggering that 30% figure. 

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13 minutes ago, Nick Pilotte said:

So it’s safe to say that an option 3 updated G1000 Ovation would be a bad buy now? 

Why would you think that?  If you can find an owner who must sell, you could probably get a lot of airplane for not a lot of money.  I suspect, but do not know, that the used, late-model Mooney market is not great for sellers at the moment.

-dan

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@exM20K I am familiar with your home airport and have been eying the property around there. You have a gorgeous plane and I meant no offense by my statement. I apologize if I did offend you or anyone.  

I should clarify.  I see them for sale and I truly am interested in them but come from an industry where electronic and instrumentation integration is common practice and it leads to expected obsolescence. So if the G1000 platform requires manufacturer support for updates (and there are always updates in aviation equipment) it seems that it could end up like early Citations or Lears where it could far exceed the value of the plane to adapt to new technology or requirements.  Maybe that’s my mind confusing things.  I guess we don’t require cars or trucks that are 20 years old to be retrofit with new engines or computers that support lower emissions or better/simpler operation of autonomy.  That could just be the way aviation is moving with integrated avionics.  So if ADSB is out now, what’s the next thing that will be required in 10-15 years?  Will it render an airframe with integrated electronics and no factory support to scrap? Export to another country that doesn’t require such enhancements? 
 

it just reminds me of defunct automotive companies like Fisker, Saab, even Saturn and Pontiac.   If the government required equipment changes on all cars like this, it would leave a lot of owners of orphaned vehicles stranded. 

Edited by Nick Pilotte

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@Nick Pilotte for sure no offense taken by me. I've dealt with this G1000 Garmin vs OEM stuff for years with Diamond, and I don't think it is a show stopper.  Only in one case (a handful of IAP's were suppressed) has an update been required, and that instance has been fixed.  The G1000/GFC700 is an excellent, reliable combination, and while it may not be upgraded to include new functionality, it is very capable as-is, and I am not concerned about support/upgrades.

Naper Aero is a very nice place to live - PM me if you'd like a tour sometime.

-dan 

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Thanks Dan. I’ve always felt the same about the G1000.  It is extremely capable in its current form and I guess I could see it remaining that way for a long time too.  Thanks for setting me straight.  

Edited by Nick Pilotte

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On 2/8/2020 at 5:41 AM, M20Doc said:

You make some great points about the state of current manufacturers.  However the tragic loss of the Texas family near Kingston Ontario has nothing to having or not having a BRS or the airframe type.  It has everything to do with VFR flight into IMC weather conditions.

Clarence

I am always surprised at the knee jerk reaction to completely dismiss the value of CAPS/BRS anytime it is mentioned and instead completely blame the pilot.  To say  “It has EVERYTHING to do with VFR flight into IMC weather conditions.” and “ has NOTHING to having or not having a BRS or the airframe type.” is just so wrong. First we don’t know exactly what happened. Pilots fly from VFR into IMC all the time and don’t crash. It is a function of many factors - pilot training, skill, current practice, knowledge of individual plane, medications, health, vision, inner ear, amount of sleep, mental state, medical event, plane equipment/flight characteristics (instruments, auto pilot, wing leveler, handling, stability, loading, etc) and actual weather conditions at the moment. Yes flight into IMC was a factor but that alone doesn’t automatically lead to a crash outcome. That is blaming one causation while ignoring actions to mitigate the outcome.  Yes the wrong combination will result in a crash. 
 

it might be better to say that the tragic loss in Kingston, Ontario “had EVERYTHING to do with the fact that airplanes are heavier than air”. Pilots have to fight that fact every flight and most are successful.  But if they are not as a last safety net they can be saved by CAPS/BRS. 

And it’s not just for the weekend warrior amateur.  Yes it even can be of value to the professionals. That commercial pilot flew a Cessna 182T into apparent icing in Louisiana last week killing 3. And what about Scott Crossfield, one of the most badass pilots in the world, who perished when his Cessna encounter weather in 2008. I am sure their families wish the planes had BRS. 
 

If someone is contemplating spending $800,000-900,000 for a new high performance single, the cost of CAPS is relatively small but the potential benefit is large. It is just a matter of time before the insurance rates practically mandate it. It seems that most female spouses get it now. It is hard to understand why it creates such pushback by some pilots but it must be that they view the new build market from the lens of the used aircraft market.  

This topic is about why Mooney is closed down. It’s pretty obvious why Cirrus is crushing the competition out of business.

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The next big sales “feature” may be autoland.   The Piper M600 is available with that now, the Cirrus jet soon will have the “magic” button.  Others to follow.  

Sooner or later one of those planes will land and come to a stop on the runway with an incapacitated or dead pilot in the seat.   

I suspect higher-end Cirrus piston planes will be offered with that option soon.   I think emergency autoland will further enable Cirrus to dominate the piston market.  

 

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26 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

The next big sales “feature” may be autoland.   The Piper M600 is available with that now, the Cirrus jet soon will have the “magic” button.  Others to follow.  

Sooner or later one of those planes will land and come to a stop on the runway with an incapacitated or dead pilot in the seat.   

I suspect higher-end Cirrus piston planes will be offered with that option soon.   I think emergency autoland will further enable Cirrus to dominate the piston market.  

 

I think the Marketeers will get all excited about it before finding out that customers don't care.

-Robert

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3 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I think the Marketeers will get all excited about it before finding out that customers don't care.

-Robert

I'm not sure, but I think this might be one of Mooney's problems.  We don't care, but the people who can afford a $900,000 airplane do care- or they have have so much money they don't give a shit about a few more dollars, but they do want the latest and greatest stuff out there.

Mooney is trying to sell a 50 year old product with a fancy new turbocharged engine and a second door.  Cirrus is trying to sell a 15 year old product with all the latest bells and whistles and it always had a second door.  And their wives like the idea of a parachute because it makes them feel safer.

Five pages into this latest Mooney factory thread and we're all still in denial about the future of Mooney.  Beechcraft and Cessna basically merged and they're still only selling around 5 new A36 Bonanzas a year.

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25 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I'm not sure, but I think this might be one of Mooney's problems.  We don't care, but the people who can afford a $900,000 airplane do care- or they have have so much money they don't give a shit about a few more dollars, but they do want the latest and greatest stuff out there.

Mooney is trying to sell a 50 year old product with a fancy new turbocharged engine and a second door.  Cirrus is trying to sell a 15 year old product with all the latest bells and whistles and it always had a second door.  And their wives like the idea of a parachute because it makes them feel safer.

Five pages into this latest Mooney factory thread and we're all still in denial about the future of Mooney.  Beechcraft and Cessna basically merged and they're still only selling around 5 new A36 Bonanzas a year.

The new 2020 cirrus has an app that lets you check the oil and o2 and who knows what else from anywhere. Do I need it? No. Do the people spending a million bucks on a new piston single want it? Probably because it's what they expect from luxury cars so why not expect it from their planes. Anyway it's still not my opinion that counts but the ones voting with their wallets.

 

Edited by philip_g
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11 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I am always surprised at the knee jerk reaction to completely dismiss the value of CAPS/BRS anytime it is mentioned and instead completely blame the pilot.  

Explanation...

It is challenging to accept a parachute that can’t ever be added to a standard Mooney...

How people deal with that varies like their choice of single malts...

Try to be nice to everyone, no matter what their choices are.

You will also notice...if you say something mean about Brand B, or Brand C... you probably won’t offend many Mooney owners around here...

 

Now,  let’s look at things that can be added to Mooneys...
 

Autopilots with auto land could be nice...

And terribly expensive...

If it ever becomes available...

 

One thing that doesn’t last long...  a high level of negativity doesn’t gain many friends... stay positive, ignore the negativity... especially when it is related to things that can’t be changed...
 

:)

Best regards,

-a-

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A guy last week or so departed Aspen in imc. Lost his airspeed indicator and somehow got turned around and off the departure and wandered into a mountain. Of all the (seemingly, we don't know the details yet) bad decisions he made that day, pulling the chute absolutely saved their lives. They were seconds from death, literally. Bad things happen. Sometimes as a result of poor decisions, sometimes not.

Edited by philip_g

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I thought that was the one with the pilot heard the engine was missing or something and he panicked and pull the chute. 

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10 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I thought that was the one with the pilot heard the engine was missing or something and he panicked and pull the chute. 

No, http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/01/cirrus-sr22t-g6-n288wt-accident.html

 

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20200128X35830&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA

 

Not a good place to be in the clouds with no situational awareness. I'm genuinely curious how one loses the ASI and then subsequently loses the ability to navigate completely but time will tell. Probably not until spring, but it will. Also like to know why they departed a mountain airport with no real options to land in an emergency when the airport is well below minimums...

Edited by philip_g

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2 hours ago, philip_g said:

Not a good place to be in the clouds with no situational awareness. I'm genuinely curious how one loses the ASI and then subsequently loses the ability to navigate completely but time will tell. Probably not until spring, but it will. Also like to know why they departed a mountain airport with no real options to land in an emergency when the airport is well below minimums...

Amen.  Any time below MSA and in clouds without SA is borrowed time...

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1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Amen.  Any time below MSA and in clouds without SA is borrowed time...

The only good decision he made was to pull the handle, however he ended up there.

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This.  “ the pilot later told authorities, his instruments “went haywire” and indicated the plane’s engine was stalling, Steindler said. The pilot, 50-year-old Tyler Noel of Verona, Wisconsin, later said he didn’t think the plane was actually stalling, though he only had seconds to decide whether to deploy the plane’s parachute, which he did, he said.”

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16 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

This.  “ the pilot later told authorities, his instruments “went haywire” and indicated the plane’s engine was stalling, Steindler said. The pilot, 50-year-old Tyler Noel of Verona, Wisconsin, later said he didn’t think the plane was actually stalling, though he only had seconds to decide whether to deploy the plane’s parachute, which he did, he said.”

More than likely, most of us here probably agree the guy is a moron.

But his wife now fully believes he is a brilliant pilot for getting her back on the ground safely.  And in the future she will never fly in a small airplane that doesn't have a parachute.

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No, http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/01/cirrus-sr22t-g6-n288wt-accident.html
 
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20200128X35830&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA
 
Also like to know why they departed a mountain airport with no real options to land in an emergency when the airport is well below minimums...


Asked an acquaintance this once under similar (albeit uneventful) circumstances. His response: “If I get in trouble, l can always just pull the chute.”

That worked for him until he put himself in a situation the chute couldn’t help, night CFIT.

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3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

This.  “ the pilot later told authorities, his instruments “went haywire” and indicated the plane’s engine was stalling, Steindler said. The pilot, 50-year-old Tyler Noel of Verona, Wisconsin, later said he didn’t think the plane was actually stalling, though he only had seconds to decide whether to deploy the plane’s parachute, which he did, he said.”

That isn't inline with what he said on the atc recording, or actually his wife. She was the one talking mostly. It's also probably not the main reason, it's more likely the fact that takes was screaming at him and synvis show a large mountain coming at him he couldn't outclimb in said condition.

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It's not always about speed. Innovation, technology, safety, economy, speed would be my list in order when it comes to buying new things.

Given 900k on a new or used airplane the mooney would be out very quickly for me. For the money there are plenty of better options. In the used market at that price point, mooney isn't even in the same league. The platform is just too far behind the other modern options.

the non modern options in the sub 200k category it's hard to beat the Mooney, but that doesn't help the factory at all.

I have my mooney because it was affordable and low maintenance. I couldn't afford my list.

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I never wanted the 'chute because of the increased maintenance costs, i.e. the decennial repack.  Then again, I'm not going to take off into IMC in the middle of a bunch of rocks I can't out climb either.

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