Mooney factory closed again

[LANCECASPER]

53 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

So you start off with a 1000 dollar a year reserve for the CAPS. Tell me how you overcome that cost differential vs other makes?

 

To replace all of the shock discs on a long body Mooney (M, R, S, TN, U)  is around $2000 parts and labor. If they are heavily optioned (long range tanks, tks or A/C) the discs are sometimes out of spec in three years, thats almost $700 per year. Plus the shock discs never get any recognition for a "save" . . lol

[Guest]

7 hours ago, GeeBee said:

So you start off with a 1000 dollar a year reserve for the CAPS. Tell me how you overcome that cost differential vs other makes?

 

And with a Mooney you have leaking fuel tanks, rotten steel cage, rotten wing spars, landing gear shock discs, no back springs, etc.  No one model is perfect and they all cost real money operate.

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

13 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Being the owner of both a Cirrus Service Center, a Mooney Service Center and a Diamond Service Center as well as having experience on a variety of other airframes, I can say that in my experience a Cirrus is no more expensive than any other make of airplane.                              
 

Clarence

That is very relevant feedback.  Thanks.

My experience as a former Diamond DA40 owner was a lot of frustration that when/if something broke then I had to buy the part from the factory with a factory serial number and dramatically greater price.  This was maybe 12 or 14 years ago, but I remember a fuel pump, Dukes I think, it was something like $2500 if I remember right but I saw on spruce that the same pump for other airplanes was like a quarter that price.  But even more frustrating especially in the diamond line is they have a bad habit of abandoning their customers - eg not offering any kind of upgrades to keep their airplanes current.  E.g. G1000 users not even getting software upgrades to keep their airplanes current.  But on and on.  I hear Cirrus is a lot better since they must have both a better attitude toward customer service, and a lot more resources to keep up.  Old Mooneys seem to have a lot of third market vendors making stuff available. 

[aviatoreb]

33 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

And with a Mooney you have leaking fuel tanks, rotten steel cage, rotten wing spars, landing gear shock discs, no back springs, etc.  No one model is perfect and they all cost real money operate.

Clarence

Airplanes are friggin expensive, no matter the make and model, so choose your poison, keep em up to date, current, in great shape, close your eyes and write lots of checks. then forget about it and go fly!

[GeeBee]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

And with a Mooney you have leaking fuel tanks, rotten steel cage, rotten wing spars, landing gear shock discs, no back springs, etc.  No one model is perfect and they all cost real money operate.

Clarence

Comparing apples and oranges. Let 's even it up. 10 year old SR22 vs 10 year old Ovation. Annual maint costs. Similar engines, one is aluminum, one composite. Both have TKS, one has retractable gear, one has CAPs. When you look at flat rates the Cirrus is a little higher even with the fixed gear. Then take it from there.

 

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

  Most stall/spin accidents are at low altitude.  If you enter a spin in a Mooney there is a good chance that you will not survive.  If you enter a spin an a plane with CAPS/BRS there is a good chance you will survive.  It is as simple as that.  It is a proven safety device.

I’m not going to debate having a BRS, I wish my M20C had one. But I think your reasoning, above, is flawed.

Most stall/spin accidents are turning base to final, typically at 500’ AGL or less. Cirrus gives a minimum altitude for BRS deployment as 580’. Even if a pilot’s reaction was instantaneous, you’re still below the envelope recommended by Cirrus. And most pilots will probably still hit the ground in a Cirrus spin on final before they even have the opportunity to think about closing the throttle and pulling the handle. 

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Wait a minute....I agree that Mooney's notoriously have fuel tank leaks, the steel cage on older models suffer corrosion especially if tied down outside in humid areas like the Gulf Coast, the shock discs are a pain and ridiculously expensive for a chunk of rubber but I thought that the wing spars were the strongest of any and rock solid....you must be referring to the old wooden wings in the late 50's M20A. 

The spars are 7075 extruded aluminum and they are fairly reactive.  Plenty of Mooney’s are either totaled or cost tens of thousands to have spars replaced. 

[Guest]

As regular readers here know, several in the modern model line have had spar issues discovered during tank reseal.  It’s not just older models.

Clarence

[PT20J]

All this Cirrus talk reminds me of my grandfather who used to drive Packards which were pretty pricey back in the day. When someone would tell him all the reasons they would not own a Packard, his reply was always, "Then if I were you, I wouldn't buy one." 

[Schllc]

It’s pretty hard to argue the safety of a parachute.That is indisputable.  

Not that anyone asked, but here is my two cents....

My dad is an attorney and dove a mercury marquis for 30 years. 

Most of his clients were farmers and he drove in the fields for years, and never got his car stuck. 
One day he told me he was going to buy a pickup truck, and I suggested four wheel drive. 
He told me he didn’t need four wheel drive, because he had been driving a two wheel drive for all those years without a problem. 
I said, but in a truck, you will make different decisions.
He didn’t agree and bought a two wheel drive. 
He has been stuck six times in three years. 

A parachute cannot possibly be a bad thing to have as an option...

Unless, it causes you to make decisions you would otherwise not make. 

 

[carusoam]

See if I got this right...

New stuff is better than the old stuff... Car, boat, plane... all wheel drive vs. 2wd...

But, stuff I have right now is the bomb!

65M20C, or 94M20R... or any M20A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,K,L,M,R,S,TN,U,V....

Don’t forget anything enhanced by Rocket engineering...

What else have you got?

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Seriously, does anyone here put any faith in the spin certification of an M20? Does anyone really make a buying decision based upon some ancient certification in which there is no date, or data or history?  Does anyone here have spin training in a Mooney?...and training in a docile Cessna 172 doesn't count...actually in a Mooney?  NO - not legally because if you look at the POH intentional spins are not allowed.  

And why are they not allowed?  Because it does not easily recover.  OK so once upon a time a skilled test pilot was able to recover a Mooney in one turn but anything done by Mooney is anecdotal today and done by test pilots no longer alive.   Bill Wheat passed in 2016.   There is some evidence that Mooney's have a tendency to flip on their back if they are loaded aft CG in a spin.  It appears that 2,000 ft. may be lost in one turn.

http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html

https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=90612

Truth be known Mooney's may be only marginally better than a Cirrus in a spin depending on loading and if flaps or gear are down.

Does anyone here feel confident that they could recover a Mooney in a spin under 2,000 ft.?  If spin recovery was a key buying decision then you would buy a Cessna 172 which can apparently recover in 500-800 ft. in one turn. 

So we take a risk every time we fly a Mooney.  Basically our only realistic defense to a spin is to avoid one by having good stall training.

This makes the whole discussion about the value of CAPS/BRS ridiculous.  Most stall/spin accidents are at low altitude.  If you enter a spin in a Mooney there is a good chance that you will not survive.  If you enter a spin an a plane with CAPS/BRS there is a good chance you will survive.  It is as simple as that.  It is a proven safety device.

https://www.faa.gov/mobile/index.cfm?event=news.read&update=87827 

Some here say that they don't need it.  Well it is like shoulder harnesses - you don't need it until you need it.  There are some pilot/owners that have failed to install rear shoulder harnesses in older Mooney's that lacked them from the factory because their passengers "don't need them".  There are some here that probably don't use the shoulder harness anyway because "they don't need it".  It is all well and good until you suffer a hard landing....then you need it.

Everything has a cost vs. benefit.  Perhaps "I don't need it" really means "I can't afford a plane with it".  I get that.  Mine doesn't have one either.  Would I (and my passengers) feel better if I did have one?...Yes.

 

 

 

 

Yes I am confident, because I don't let an airplane spin. Recognizing incipient spin is the key, but beyond that is preventing loss of control in the first place. One of the changes that created AQP is to stop practicing maneuver in regimes that will kill us to preventing flight into such regimes in the first place. For instance on a single runway operation if you overshoot the center line do you skid the airplane onto final, keeping extra speed to prevent LOC or do you remain in co-ordinated flight accept the overshoot and fly back onto centerline? If they are to parallel runways do you start the turn early, if late skid with speed, or bank over hard but co-ordinated. If you bank over what is the minimum speed you maneuver at in the pattern?

[steingar]

While I respect and value @M20Doc insight, I'll bet the only reason a Cirrus might be the same to maintain as a Mooney is the Cirrus is decades newer

[Nick Pilotte]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

While I respect and value @M20Doc insight, I'll bet the only reason a Cirrus might be the same to maintain as a Mooney is the Cirrus is decades newer

Perhaps he could comment on a more apples to apples dataset.  
 

Perhaps we compare an SR22 G2/3 to an Ovation 2 or 3 GX to get to the similar airframe age.  Then an Acclaim to an SR22T for an idea.  All these have TKS available, similar engines, and if compared to appropriate years, have glass panels.  
 

As a green pilot, I find the chute discussion interesting because the chute is a tool, just like car airbags, ABS, and stability control.  I don’t use any of those in a daily basis but they are there should I ever need to.  I do have a unique perspective from a spousal standpoint too.  I have a Class A CDL and my wife’s father died in a semi truck when she was a baby.  Her stepdad died in a Pawnee crash.  Her coworker used John Azma for his Citation training. While all of these accidents are tragic, it doesn’t hurt to add a tool to the toolbox when bad stuff happens.  A chute would not bring back her father or stepdad, But John and the student that was with him may still be alive if they had one. I have a high school buddy who is alive because Martin Baker sold a seat to the US government for his F-16 too.  He would not have been able to get out of it as it tumbled down in Utah without that tool. An Ovation with a BRS would be a solid win for me if they made one.  

[Guest]

From a maintenance standpoint alone, a Cirrus whether turbo charged or not is no more expensive to maintain than an Ovation, Acclaim or Bravo.  The CAPS is about $1200 per year, I class it as a capital expense not a maintenance expense.

Both airframes have issues related to their Continental engines,  starter adapter issues, cylinder issues, exhaust system issues.  A Cirrus doesn’t have retractable gear, it doesn’t have grease points on the gear, it doesn’t have a no back spring to replace, it’s fuel tanks generally don’t leak, we’ve repaired one of 30 odd we take care of. Even some newer Mooney have needed fuel tank repair.  

Mid 2000’s Cirrus don’t have paint issues that mid 2000’s Mooneys have, Cirrus airframes don’t have corrosion issues to deal with.  And lastly it’s better supported by the factory, better avionics support and with better warranty, and even consideration when warranty has expired.  

$30,000.00 dollar annuals don’t happen to either airframe in my experience unless the engine is being top overhauled with new cylinder, then it’s not really part of the “Annual”

The Mooney airframe is superior in fuel efficiency, but the market is clearly saying that doesn’t mean much.

Clarence

 

[Danb]

I get confused in my old age , is this a Mooney site?

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Danb said:

I get confused in my old age , is this a Mooney site?

You’re not going senile in your old age, it’s still Mooneyspace.  I’m just trying to clarify comments made about other airframes.  I’ve always maintained that no one airframe is perfect.

Clarence

[Skates97]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:14 PM, Schllc said:

It’s pretty hard to argue the safety of a parachute.That is indisputable.  

Not that anyone asked, but here is my two cents....

My dad is an attorney and dove a mercury marquis for 30 years. 

Most of his clients were farmers and he drove in the fields for years, and never got his car stuck. 
One day he told me he was going to buy a pickup truck, and I suggested four wheel drive. 
He told me he didn’t need four wheel drive, because he had been driving a two wheel drive for all those years without a problem. 
I said, but in a truck, you will make different decisions.
He didn’t agree and bought a two wheel drive. 
He has been stuck six times in three years. 

A parachute cannot possibly be a bad thing to have as an option...

Unless, it causes you to make decisions you would otherwise not make. 

 

I see both of those statements as true. I can say that my experience has been that I've never been stuck as bad in a two wheel drive as I have been in a four wheel drive. Of course that is usually the result of thinking "I'll bet I can make it through that, I have four-wheel drive..." 

[Eight8Victor]

Anthony mentioned it before and here we have a story on how strong the GA market is...and in this strong economy with a rosey outlook our Mooney factory is all but dead. If the leadership at Mooney International can't make a go of it now, how will they ever get back on track? http://aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/february/19/piston-trainer-surge-lifted-market

Parachute or not, autoland or manual land, doesn't matter, just an excuse.

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

So it’s been nearly 3 months since the Chinese owners of Mooney stiffed the employees, welching on paying promised holiday pay that was an enticement to return to work after the Thanksgiving shutdown. And it has been a month since anyone commented about this topic here.

Has anyone heard anything about the status of Mooney and the factory? Anything officially from Mooney management?....anything from the Chinese owners?...anything from departed employees?...any rumors?...anything??  
 

Does anyone know if Mooney has a plan to sell airplanes this year?...or to just sell the company?

The double recession in China must be killing the Meijing Group - real estate is usually the first to collapse. And I fear that the emerging US recession, manifested via the 35% drop in the stock market, will be devastating to all GA this year. 

We will be lucky if this is just a recession. I haven’t been as concerned about Great Depression number 2 since the financial crisis of a decade plus ago. If this thing is not handled properly I fear that it will get very bad.

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, Bravoman said:

We will be lucky if this is just a recession. I haven’t been as concerned about Great Depression number 2 since the financial crisis of a decade plus ago. If this thing is not handled properly I fear that it will get very bad.

I agree.  This is a tenuous moment.

And as for Mooney, I am sad to say my opinion but they didn't manage to stay open during a booming period so I just cannot imagine how this time they might recover during an economic downturn that is likely to be worse than any in any of our lives.  The cards are stacked against, but I will not say never.

Edited March 23, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Danb]

We’re all concerned about a possible collapse of the economy, many of us are 70+ and have never seen anything of this magnitude, hopefully it won’t become a depression, praying for all those whose livelihood has been impaired, be well and safe everyone 

[carusoam]

Let’s start planning the screeching re-start...  

Best regards,

-a-

[Geoff]

TBM just bought Kodiac.  Anyone think they would be interested in Mooney?  They could probably get it for a song.  They could call it Tarbes Mooney again!

I bet its cheaper to make parts in Kerrville than France.

Easy marketing, call everything TBM (horsepower), TBM 280, TBM 310, TBM 700, TBM 850.  A more complete line of product. All they need then is to finish the M10 (TBM 180), and they have a trainer to a turboprop. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Geoff

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Geoff said:

TBM just bought Kodiac.  Anyone think they would be interested in Mooney?  They could probably get it for a song.  They could call it Tarbes Mooney again!

I bet its cheaper to make parts in Kerrville than France.

Wow - that would be such a lovely serendipity for the TBM to reunite with the M part of their TBM name that gave them birth from the M30 project that became the TBM700.