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It was mentioned again as a personal experience in the Kansas crash thread.  Why does the US not use the ICAO clearance philosophy. There’s no shortage of deaths as a result of several aircraft ALL being cleared to land on a given runway.

Outside of the US, when you’re cleared to land, that means the runway is yours.  In Canada (ICAO rules) if you’re on approach with other aircraft the controller will say number 3 following a whatever..  If there’s an aircraft dawdling on the runway for takeoff, a plane on final will be told to expect late clearance...

It doesn’t make sense to me.  When you’re cleared for takeoff or cleared across a runway, it means the way is clear.  Why not in perhaps the most critical phase in flight are the pilots expected to be on the frequency long enough to know how many aircraft have also been cleared ahead? 

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In the US we have gotten more and more instructions, training, and signage regarding proper runway clearance...

And now ADSB out with our transponders always on to support knowing where everyone is...

 

So... Cyril... I’m not sure of the details of the Kansas incident, I’ll have to review that...

There shouldn’t ever be two planes cleared for the same space...

Some airports are so crowded at times... We had a Mooney fall out of the traffic pattern on Long Island earlier this week... and go unnoticed by the controller... there was a brief Mayday, Mayday, that the controller missed...  pilot landed amongst the trees after an engine out... Controller was trying to follow up with the rogue plane... when the next pilot in line brought the controller up to speed...

Some environments are crazy at some times....

Are you seeing something different?

Best regards,

-a-

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It is not unusual at DVT (Deer Valley, Phoenix)  for several aircraft to be cleared to land on the same runway at the same time.  Usually this happens if following aircraft have indicated that they have leading traffic in sight, but not always.   I think it can also happen if the tower determines that spacing is sufficient that there won't be conflicts.   If spacings change, it is also not unusual for clearances to be cancelled.

Last Sunday I was cleared to land, #3, behind two other aircraft that I did not have in sight, but were significantly further in the pattern than I was, who were also cleared to land.   Sometimes people fly very long downwinds, and since I didn't have the other traffic in sight I asked whether I was clear to turn base before I did.    It's not a big deal, and I think not unusual at very busy airports.

 

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8 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Why not in perhaps the most critical phase in flight are the pilots expected to be on the frequency long enough to know how many aircraft have also been cleared ahead? 

I don't know the Kansas incident and how it was related to being cleared to land in sequence. 
 

But this sentence struck me, Why would an aircraft be off the frequency at a towered airport? You have been on the frequency since before entering that airspace. Why would you change to a different frequency or be playing with the radio at all "in perhaps the most critical phase in flight" and be unable to hear other common instructions?

Edited by midlifeflyer
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From my listening to the ATC recording, the latest M20S incident in Kansas had nothing to do with being cleared to land.  I'm still confused because as @EricJ points out, just like in Canada, U.S. controllers will say "cleared to land #..." if they have multiple on final.  In the case that someone goes too fast, too slow, or takes too much time on the runway they will issue a go around.

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1 hour ago, Davidv said:

From my listening to the ATC recording, the latest M20S incident in Kansas had nothing to do with being cleared to land.  I'm still confused because as @EricJ points out, just like in Canada, U.S. controllers will say "cleared to land #..." if they have multiple on final.  In the case that someone goes too fast, too slow, or takes too much time on the runway they will issue a go around.

Just to be clear, I was just commenting on an append regarding multiple cleared to land instructions, nothing to do with the specific Kansas accident.  Sorry for the implication.

In Canada there is NO multiple simultaneous cleared to land instructions.  Never.  Only one aircraft is cleared to land, and then only if the runway is clear.

At my very busy training airport, I’m often number 5 or 6 to land.  It’s not unusual to enter the zone after the first one or two have already called in and given a sequence.  In that case I don’t know where all the other aircraft are.

It would be interesting if our European members would comment to see if they follow ICAO regs or not.

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3 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Just to be clear, I was just commenting on an append regarding multiple cleared to land instructions, nothing to do with the specific Kansas accident.  Sorry for the implication.

In Canada there is NO multiple simultaneous cleared to land instructions.  Never.  Only one aircraft is cleared to land, and then only if the runway is clear.

At my very busy training airport, I’m often number 5 or 6 to land.  It’s not unusual to enter the zone after the first one or two have already called in and given a sequence.  In that case I don’t know where all the other aircraft are.

It would be interesting if our European members would comment to see if they follow ICAO regs or not.

I guess I still don't see a problem.  I've even been cleared to land, and landed, with another airplane still on the runway. No big deal. Just normal to me. Now, if one is not used to the instructions and don't understand them, I can see an issue, but that's true of everything.

Edited by midlifeflyer
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I agree with Cyril on this one.  My last flight I was on a right downwind and cleared to land #2.  The other aircraft was on left downwind.  Instead of turning base when I normally would, I had to find the other aircraft (a much slower plane) and space myself well behind him.  So not really "cleared to land" in my opinion.

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46 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

It would be interesting if our European members would comment to see if they follow ICAO regs or not.

I am based at a non-towered field, but from what I recall, I'd get "#N to land" while on downwind / base for sequencing / awareness and then a confirming "cleared to land rwy 25".  I'm sure others will chime in.

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I've gotten the 'Cleared to land #2 behind traffic' before too, but it's always after getting a traffic advisory and reporting traffic in sight.  I've never been given a cleared behind unless I've confirmed that I do in fact have them in sight(best I can remember anyway).  Regs aside, I've always regarded it as a VFR type clearance where I'm still responsible for separation.

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Found this that might be of inteest for this discussion:

  1. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
  1. Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe the positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed runway separation will exist when the aircraft crosses the landing threshold. Issue traffic information to the succeeding aircraft if a preceding arrival has not been previously reported and when traffic will be departing prior to their arrival.

EXAMPLE-

“American Two Forty-Five, Runway One-Eight, cleared to land, number two following a United Seven-Thirty-Seven two mile final. Traffic will depart prior to your arrival.”

“American Two Forty-Five, Runway One-Eight, cleared to land. Traffic will depart prior to your arrival.”

NOTE-

Landing sequence number is optional at tower facilities where the arrival sequence to the runway is established by the approach control.

  1. Anticipating separation must not be applied when conducting LUAW operations, except as authorized in paragraph 3-10-5b2. Issue applicable traffic information when using this provision.

EXAMPLE-

“American Two Forty-Five, Runway One-Eight, cleared to land. Traffic will be a Boeing Seven-Fifty-Seven holding in position.”

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1 hour ago, ChrisV said:

I have never heard this statement when landing "Traffic will depart prior to your arrival."

I hear this all the time at KBJC here in Denver. Its a very busy training environment with parallel runways. We also have lots of business jet traffic and it's the US HQ for Pilatus. 

I've rolled out on final many times, been cleared to land with "Traffic will depart prior to your arrival."

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1 hour ago, bob865 said:

Regs aside, I've always regarded it as a VFR type clearance where I'm still responsible for separation.

Exactly.    See and avoid and separation are still the pilot's responsibility.   The tower giving clearance is just that, permission to land, and they've determined that there is currently separation and likely told you where the other traffic is.    In the case I mentioned above, since I wasn't sure where the traffic ahead of me was I asked to clear my base turn to make sure I didn't turn in front of them or reduce spacing too much.    I had a conversation with one of our local controllers about this recently, that even when we've indicated that we have the previous traffic in sight, we can lose track of them really easily and not be able to maintain separation visually.    His response was just ask.  ;)

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5 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Just to be clear, I was just commenting on an append regarding multiple cleared to land instructions, nothing to do with the specific Kansas accident.  Sorry for the implication.

In Canada there is NO multiple simultaneous cleared to land instructions.  Never.  Only one aircraft is cleared to land, and then only if the runway is clear.

At my very busy training airport, I’m often number 5 or 6 to land.  It’s not unusual to enter the zone after the first one or two have already called in and given a sequence.  In that case I don’t know where all the other aircraft are.

It would be interesting if our European members would comment to see if they follow ICAO regs or not.

It really depends on the airport and situation, I've been given the "expect landing clearance on short final" as well as cleared to land #...., and "Traffic will be holding in position".  In net, I've never felt like ATC was putting me in an unsafe situation from a landing clearance perspective.  Of course, I've had other instances where ATC has issued instructions that I wouldn't agree with but they are human.

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2 hours ago, EricJ said:

Exactly.    See and avoid and separation are still the pilot's responsibility.   The tower giving clearance is just that, permission to land, and they've determined that there is currently separation and likely told you where the other traffic is.    In the case I mentioned above, since I wasn't sure where the traffic ahead of me was I asked to clear my base turn to make sure I didn't turn in front of them or reduce spacing too much.    I had a conversation with one of our local controllers about this recently, that even when we've indicated that we have the previous traffic in sight, we can lose track of them really easily and not be able to maintain separation visually.    His response was just ask.  ;)

I get things like this at my home drome. 

“cleared to land #3 behind caravan on 5 mile final”

”no contact, 39Q”

”39Q extend your downwind I will call your base”

So if tower is now calling my downwind to base turn are they not taking responsibility for separation?

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5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I've even been cleared to land, and landed, with another airplane still on the runway.

That's a hard no for me. If I'm about to touch down and traffic hasn't cleared the runway, I go around. Happened just the other day. I was cleared to land, student pilot in front of me, missed the 1st turn off, missed the 2nd turn off, and wasn't turning by the time I was over the threshold. I went around and flew over them as they began to turn off.

You never know what could have happened. Maybe the other airplane's engine stalled and quit, maybe they blew a tire, maybe they're confused. And that's going to be the day I'm 5 knots too fast and float all the way down to the stopped traffic.

Nope.

 

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30 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I get things like this at my home drome. 

“cleared to land #3 behind caravan on 5 mile final”

”no contact, 39Q”

”39Q extend your downwind I will call your base”

So if tower is now calling my downwind to base turn are they not taking responsibility for separation?

That'd be a good question for a controller, but my understanding has always been that under VFR conditions the ultimate responsibility is on the pilot.   The AIM seems to indicate that, but also says if you lose sight of preceding traffic, you're supposed to say so.

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45 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I get things like this at my home drome. 

“cleared to land #3 behind caravan on 5 mile final”

”no contact, 39Q”

”39Q extend your downwind I will call your base”

So if tower is now calling my downwind to base turn are they not taking responsibility for separation?

In VFR conditions, tower has NO responsibility to keep you separated.  You are required to maintain your own.  Will they do everything they can? Yes.  But sometimes they'll vector you right into another plane, and it's your responsibility to see and avoid 

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5 hours ago, Ricky_231 said:

That's a hard no for me. If I'm about to touch down and traffic hasn't cleared the runway, I go around. Happened just the other day. I was cleared to land, student pilot in front of me, missed the 1st turn off, missed the 2nd turn off, and wasn't turning by the time I was over the threshold. I went around and flew over them as they began to turn off.

You never know what could have happened. Maybe the other airplane's engine stalled and quit, maybe they blew a tire, maybe they're confused. And that's going to be the day I'm 5 knots too fast and float all the way down to the stopped traffic.

Nope.

 

That would be a heck of a float. It was a 10,000' runway. ;) . The minimum separation for ATC is 3,000' for us. I had much more. More for faster aircraft.
 

But yeah, the first time it was a bit disconcerting.

Edited by midlifeflyer
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6 hours ago, Ricky_231 said:

That's a hard no for me. If I'm about to touch down and traffic hasn't cleared the runway, I go around. Happened just the other day. I was cleared to land, student pilot in front of me, missed the 1st turn off, missed the 2nd turn off, and wasn't turning by the time I was over the threshold. I went around and flew over them as they began to turn off.

You never know what could have happened. Maybe the other airplane's engine stalled and quit, maybe they blew a tire, maybe they're confused. And that's going to be the day I'm 5 knots too fast and float all the way down to the stopped traffic.

Nope.

 

guessing you're not going to oshkosh

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Land on a specific colored dot... not the wrong colored dot...

Don’t land early...

roll out at high speed to free up space...

Memories of KOSH...
 

KOSH has been known to forget about you when they say they will call your turn to final...

I would think that they would have remembered me and my pilot from the night before...  :) (something about a discussion of what time the airport was going to close, we fly Mooneys... we can be on the ground, and tied down before the other planes turn final...)  Appleton is nice... :)


So...  separation in VFR is something you want to maintain under all conditions... keep both eyes open, head on a swivel, use the ADSB as a tool... but don’t spend time staring at it...

Its going to be cognitively busy if you are third in line... blending with other planes in all directions and various air speeds...

So many things can goof up a good conga line... misjudgment, machine failure, unseen ground traffic, brain flatulence...  be ready for the GA...

Sometimes a sidestep improves vision and not share a flight path with other planes... at KOSH they may have two parallel runways in operation at the same time... know which way you are going to side step before getting into the other planes’s space...  the side-step is probably measured in feet, not miles...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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I've been cleared to land 8+ miles out.  I've also had the tower revoke a clearance because someone is taking forever to get off the runway.   Remember.  A clearance to land means you can let your plane touch the runway.  It doesn't mean you have to.   Cleared for the option means you can touch the  runway and then take off again if you choose to.

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15 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That would be a heck of a float. It was a 10,000' runway. ;) . The minimum separation for ATC is 3,000' for us. I had much more. More for faster aircraft.
 

But yeah, the first time it was a bit disconcerting.

Alright - that's a little different. That's like 3 runways one after the other :-)  The incident I mentioned was on a 5000' runway and I went around when the other aircraft missed the 2000' turnoff and I was over the threshold - so if he stopped right there and then it would've been pretty tight. But I see your point.

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