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G3X with Aspen backup?


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Question for the avionics experts out there. I am considering options for upgrading my panel. I like the G3X Touch but it won’t drive my KFC 200 autopilot and I really can’t financially justify throwing the KFC 200 away while it is still working perfectly well. 
Right now my Aspen drives the autopilot. Is there anything preventing me from installing a G3X as my primary display and leaving the Aspen PFD in as my backup and also to continue to drive the autopilot? If and when the KFC 200 dies, I can consider the Garmin GFC 500 at that time.

Would that legal and would it work?

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2 minutes ago, squeaky.stow said:

Question for the avionics experts out there. I am considering options for upgrading my panel. I like the G3X Touch but it won’t drive my KFC 200 autopilot and I really can’t financially justify throwing the KFC 200 away while it is still working perfectly well. 
Right now my Aspen drives the autopilot. Is there anything preventing me from installing a G3X as my primary display and leaving the Aspen PFD in as my backup and also to continue to drive the autopilot? If and when the KFC 200 dies, I can consider the Garmin GFC 500 at that time.

Would that legal and would it work?

Nope, wouldn't do it if you are planning a GFC500, though I do not care for Garmin, you need to go with the G5 as a backup because Garmin likes to be like Apple, that is the only unit that will drive the GFC500.  

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Officially I think you need the aspen units certified for backup. One big difference is the included external battery. I really do not trust the included backup battery in the older style aspen units. Mine died pretty fast before the required replacement IIRC. The newer max and E5 systems might have enough reserve power being more efficient with the internal one. 

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I really think a aspen mfd1000 w/external battery would be a perfect backup solution. Could be used as a dedicated traffic/stormscope/AOA screen but also be a fully capable backup system with HSI when needed. 
 

At the same time I think a 7 inch g3x mfd would be the perfect companion to the Aspen PFD...I guess I’m not too brand loyal. 
 

@JohnB has one to backup his Txi 6B378FA7-387D-41A2-9648-5DC8103E3213.thumb.jpeg.94b9438cde96d10ea11b0ff02ade4d54.jpeg

 

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15 minutes ago, Baker Avionics said:

Nope, wouldn't do it if you are planning a GFC500, though I do not care for Garmin, you need to go with the G5 as a backup because Garmin likes to be like Apple, that is the only unit that will drive the GFC500.  

I am not planning a GFC500. That’s the point of the question. If the KFC dies, I might have to go with with a GFC500, in which case I would pull and sell the Aspen and put in a G5, but I am trying to find a solution that will allow me to keep my perfectly working KFC for now. 

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2 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I really think a aspen mfd1000 w/external battery would be a perfect backup solution. Could be used as a dedicated traffic/stormscope/AOA screen but also be a fully capable backup system with HSI when needed. 
 

At the same time I think a 7 inch g3x mfd would be the perfect companion to the Aspen PFD...I guess I’m not too brand loyal. 
 

@JohnB has one to backup his Txi 6B378FA7-387D-41A2-9648-5DC8103E3213.thumb.jpeg.94b9438cde96d10ea11b0ff02ade4d54.jpeg

 

Aspen units are used as backup for the G1000 Meridian I fly at work.  You could probably get field approval to do it if you really want.

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3 minutes ago, squeaky.stow said:

I am not planning a GFC500. That’s the point of the question. If the KFC dies, I might have to go with with a GFC500, in which case I would pull and sell the Aspen and put in a G5, but I am trying to find a solution that will allow me to keep my perfectly working KFC for now. 

I would keep rolling the KFC200 as long as possible.  It is a solid AP and I am pretty sure it going to be serviced for plenty of years to come!  Good choices and great idea!!  I'm a fan! If you need a hand with it, let us know!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/1/2020 at 3:33 PM, MIm20c said:

I really think a aspen mfd1000 w/external battery would be a perfect backup solution. Could be used as a dedicated traffic/stormscope/AOA screen but also be a fully capable backup system with HSI when needed. 
 

At the same time I think a 7 inch g3x mfd would be the perfect companion to the Aspen PFD...I guess I’m not too brand loyal. 
 

@JohnB has one to backup his Txi 6B378FA7-387D-41A2-9648-5DC8103E3213.thumb.jpeg.94b9438cde96d10ea11b0ff02ade4d54.jpeg

 

Aspen is certified as a backup unit (or a primary unit) for our airplanes. I purchased the Aspen Pro Evolution which has a long battery life. The TXi is certified as a primary unit and with the correct additions will drive the autopilot. I would not be able to have both systems run my autopilot as Garmin’s systems won’t drive Aspens autopilot system. If you must have both of your systems run your autopilot, you would need to have both be Garmin and get a g5 and create a switch. The switch can be a weak link or point of failure of your autopilot system from what I have heard,  but I do know some people who have installed them without problems so far. 

My rationale is if my primary went down, due to something like electrical failure, my autopilot would be down anyways, and the Aspen has far more emergency navigational capacity  than any other backup system I have seen out there and would allow me to navigate via my last gps course AND have a fully functioning DG, where as the G5 would only give you DG information with no navigational capacity in case of electrical failure. 

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On 1/1/2020 at 3:33 PM, MIm20c said:

I really think a aspen mfd1000 w/external battery would be a perfect backup solution. Could be used as a dedicated traffic/stormscope/AOA screen but also be a fully capable backup system with HSI when needed. 
 

At the same time I think a 7 inch g3x mfd would be the perfect companion to the Aspen PFD...I guess I’m not too brand loyal. 
 

@JohnB has one to  backup his Txi

A big +1 on that one Mlm. In my opinion,  Aspen has the best, most capable backup solution out there so far and is very useful routinely as a secondary nav/ situational instrument when everything is working. 

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Is it just me, or is the idea of having your backup (regardless of what it is) drive the autopilot just doesn't make any sense. 

The scenario seems like this... I look at the G3X and make all my decisions based on what I'm looking at, again, the G3X. But then to do anything I have to now go duplicate my actions on the Aspen. E.g. ATC says fly heading 180... I set the heading bug on my primary display, the G3X and then set the bug on the Aspen so the autopilot will turn the plane to 180. I might as well be watching YouTube on the G3X. It's not actually doing anything unless I'm hand flying.... which is almost never.

It doesn't make sense to me... just my $0.02

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3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Is it just me, or is the idea of having your backup (regardless of what it is) drive the autopilot just doesn't make any sense. 

The scenario seems like this... I look at the G3X and make all my decisions based on what I'm looking at, again, the G3X. But then to do anything I have to now go duplicate my actions on the Aspen. E.g. ATC says fly heading 180... I set the heading bug on my primary display, the G3X and then set the bug on the Aspen so the autopilot will turn the plane to 180. I might as well be watching YouTube on the G3X. It's not actually doing anything unless I'm hand flying.... which is almost never.

It doesn't make sense to me... just my $0.02

No reason to do things twice. Just connect the ea100 to the AP and everything else via the g3x. Never touch the aspen again if you don't want to. I think it’s a good idea because you are always cross checking the AP. Main focus is on the g3x (if that’s your primary) and if the any AP component fails (including the aspen/ea100/ or 256) it will immediately get your attention.

However, I’m pretty sure JohnB is using a gad43e so the aspen is acting as a backup only.  

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I'm sure I'm missing something. But I have an Aspen/EA100 connected to my autopilot and have to touch the Aspen all the time. Heading, switching between GPSS/Heading, selecting a different nav source such as VOR, setting minimums, etc. That's why it seems to me I'd have to do everything twice if it was just a backup but still controlling my autopilot.

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As I understand from another thread, the G3X can provide nav and heading guidance to my KFC autopilot but not attitude, so the Aspen would only be providing attitude reference, just like the G5 does with the G3X/G5/GFC500 combo.
The difference (and the problem, I think) is that my KFC computer can’t provide flight director cues to the G3X, only to the Aspen, so that would really mean that the Aspen would continue to be my primary, regardless of what I choose to label it. Unless there is a way to have the flight director guidance sent to the G3X so that I know what the autopilot is asking the airplane to do, and so that I only need to spin one heading or altitude bug, it doesn’t work for me.

 

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17 minutes ago, squeaky.stow said:

As I understand from another thread, the G3X can provide nav and heading guidance to my KFC autopilot but not attitude, so the Aspen would only be providing attitude reference, just like the G5 does with the G3X/G5/GFC500 combo.

See, that's the part I was missing. Thanks.

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I forgot about the FD. This is a g3x and old auto pilot problem not necessary the chosen backup. I think Garmin sidestepped this limitation by providing the highway in the sky depiction which allows for the repositioning of the flight director AI from primary (a problem for a G5 installation). 
 

The question is can the aspen display the FD information without being required to provide the lateral navigation?

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9 hours ago, MIm20c said:

No reason to do things twice. Just connect the ea100 to the AP and everything else via the g3x. Never touch the aspen again if you don't want to. I think it’s a good idea because you are always cross checking the AP. Main focus is on the g3x (if that’s your primary) and if the any AP component fails (including the aspen/ea100/ or 256) it will immediately get your attention.

However, I’m pretty sure JohnB is using a gad43e so the aspen is acting as a backup only.  

Correct, my Garmin gad43e connects all of my Garmin TXi functions to my KAP 150 autopilot, works well together. My Aspen has no autopilot connection whatsoever,. It is a great secondary nav tool even not in an emergency. I totally agree with @gsxrpilot there’s absolutely no need to have your autopilot connected to your backup system, and it wouldn’t work anyway in an electrical failure. 

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I forgot about the FD. This is a g3x and old auto pilot problem not necessary the chosen backup. I think Garmin sidestepped this limitation by providing the highway in the sky depiction which allows for the repositioning of the flight director AI from primary (a problem for a G5 installation). 
 

The question is can the aspen display the FD information without being required to provide the lateral navigation?

I believe my Aspen displays FD information when I set a course or set an approach, so I can load a gps waas approach on my TXi and an ILS on my Aspen and get lateral and vertical navigation indications on the hsi and am easily able to look at the different indicators in case of degradation of the gps or ils signal or some other deviation from perfection. Only the TXi though is connected to the autopilot. If you’re talking about the flight director bars, I believe they are there on the Aspen as well, but I’ll have to verify that next time I fly. 

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4 hours ago, JohnB said:

If you’re talking about the flight director bars, I believe they are there on the Aspen as well, but I’ll have to verify that next time I fly. 

Im guessing the ea100 is the two way communication device that displays the FD. Probably can’t/wouldn’t want to have it on both the aspen and txi. However, for the g3x that only has highway in the sky (unless you’re using a gfc500) I don’t see the harm of having the aspen display the FD. FB7A19AD-2E97-4D67-BBF2-E21A6B9BB5C9.thumb.jpeg.750afe2f749b62bbcad9bf9c216ea656.jpeg

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I believe my Aspen displays FD information when I set a course or set an approach, so I can load a gps waas approach on my TXi and an ILS on my Aspen and get lateral and vertical navigation indications on the hsi and am easily able to look at the different indicators in case of degradation of the gps or ils signal or some other deviation from perfection. Only the TXi though is connected to the autopilot. If you’re talking about the flight director bars, I believe they are there on the Aspen as well, but I’ll have to verify that next time I fly. 


On an Aspen 2000 system, you can flip autopilot control from the PFD to the MFD when in reversion mode. This is done through a panel mounted switch. I think if you have the G3X controlling the autopilot and want to switch it to the Aspen, you would probably have difficulty since the G3X uses one of the GAD (43e?) to control an analog autopilot and the Aspen would require an EA-100 connected to do the control.

831196b29c7a940005bfb1c3d51bfa24.jpg

The dual HSI feature of an Aspen 2000 was a big selling point for me. Even when not in reversion mode, the MFD has a built in HSI that I will either use to track a GPS overlay or a separate approach to the same runway.

33296d18fef867dc806765702df7717a.jpg

As for the flight director, I have the STEC flight director. It will display on both Aspens at the same time. Here is a shot of the MFD in reversion mode with the AP being controlled by the MFD.

5a47814d46042ba849e8e2b122e3aa43.jpg




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15 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Im guessing the ea100 is the two way communication device that displays the FD. Probably can’t/wouldn’t want to have it on both the aspen and txi. However, for the g3x that only has highway in the sky (unless you’re using a gfc500) I don’t see the harm of having the aspen display the FD. FB7A19AD-2E97-4D67-BBF2-E21A6B9BB5C9.thumb.jpeg.750afe2f749b62bbcad9bf9c216ea656.jpeg

Got it, I’ll check. Now not sure if it does on both, as my Aspen is not connected to the autopilot. But you’re giving me another excuse to go flying! (Like I need another reason ha!) The Highway in the sky would be a cool feature that is not on either of my gadgets. 

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Since aviation uses a big switch... to direct various inputs to a single display...

It would be technically possible to have another big switch... to direct various outputs to a single AP...

Expect that there is lots of technical/legal homework to make it happen...

Also expect that this introduces additional points of failure...

 

By the time The new panel is up and running, and upon payment.... I believe an electrical engineering degree is conferred upon the owner... you also get a minor in software engineering... :)

Best regards,

-a-

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/13/2020 at 5:40 AM, MIm20c said:

Im guessing the ea100 is the two way communication device that displays the FD. Probably can’t/wouldn’t want to have it on both the aspen and txi. However, for the g3x that only has highway in the sky (unless you’re using a gfc500) I don’t see the harm of having the aspen display the FD. FB7A19AD-2E97-4D67-BBF2-E21A6B9BB5C9.thumb.jpeg.750afe2f749b62bbcad9bf9c216ea656.jpeg

In answer to your question, the flight director bars do NOT also show up on my Aspen. When my autopilot is on, the FD bars only appear on the TXi exactly as above.

Edited by JohnB
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