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1977 J panel upgrades


dzeleski

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2 minutes ago, PTK said:

Well, you do. You are the pro we look to for education. If not you then who? As you said you educate your customers so they can make good decisions. 

Naw, it's ok.  Every reason doesn't matter.  If you don't have an AP, why do you want to know about that part?  If it doesn't integrate with a GFC500 and you have a KFC200 and you are keeping until TruTrak comes out or once it craps out you are getting a S-Tec, why do you care about the non-integration factor of a GFC500?  I see what you are trying to do and it isn't going to work.  too many folks know me here and in the industry.  As they do you as well. (Not necessarily in a bad way).  

You have your mind made up and want to debate on this subject.  I really do not care.  It isn't my decision what others choose.  It simply is the highs, the lows, the functions one is looking for and the upgrading of the system in the future.  That's all. Will it fit your wants and needs?  Yes/No  Is it in the price point you are looking at? Yes/No.  

I really appreciate your willingness to share the SAIB on the Aspen for informational concerns, I mean that.  

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No, no. I'm just sorta half way tongue in cheek, reminding people of that ignore feature. It can make the whole MooneySpace experience much more pleasant.
Are you kidding... I'm wondering if Grants Pass is too far to take my Mooney for some avionics work. I'd love to bring her to you for some work.


The only problem with the “Ignore” button is the temptation to look at what stupid thing the ignored person said.


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On 1/1/2020 at 10:10 PM, dzeleski said:

Personally I’m not going be flying between storms to the point that I think it will be useful. If the weather is that crap I have no issues hanging on the ground for a bit waiting for it to pass

Glad to hear you’re keeping the stormscope.  This is good advice. 
 

I look for two things when performing avionics upgrades - 1) what functionality will my plane get with the upgrade that it didn’t have before and 2) what maximum value (defined loosely) can I get by selecting a piece of equipment that can achieve that new functionality.  
 

Listen to the advice of Baker and Bob Weber.  They are professionals who have been great enough to share their knowledge with us.  There are a few more avionics professionals who share their knowledge and experience over on beechtalk as well.  I often seek out advice there as well. 

Third general point is panel real estate is huge in the Mooney.  You need to have your long term avionics plan set if you are going to do this piecemeal.  I am a piecemeal upgrader- but I had a general idea of what’s coming next.  
 

Fourth general point is what will get you killed in IMC are LOC/SD and thunderstorm penetration.  You have a plan for TS penetration set (and it’s a good one).  You need another source for attitude that is *not* a portable / ipad.  I did the iPad thing for a few years and was kidding myself that it could keep the blue side up if the proverbial hit the fan. A turn coordinator won’t suffice either and the FAA thinks so with its blessing or TC replacement with AI guidance (I can’t recall the AC number). Get two attitude sources front and center.  
 

One current problem with your panel is that the engine monitors that you currently have  may not be ”entirely legal” installs. I believe the Alcor OEM EGT remained required equipment- that ancient and useless POS has been dispatched with and blanked off.  That’s great for you but pushes me to advise do the engine monitor upgrade sooner and if you care about the OEM issue, go with a 900 or EI for purposes of real estate.  
 

The biggest driver of your decision making should be what autopilot upgrade, if any, you will be doing.  If you have your heart set on a GFC, then you will be married to a G5.  The way you could get an aspen unit in there is if you had the G5 as your standby AI.  
 

I recently sold my KX-170b as I was looking at a third repair in as many years.  They are tanks and they are powerful radios, but at some point they will give.  Fortunately there are shops that repair them still- EC Glass recently retired though.  Based on my history of repairs and looking at sticking another $500 into a 42 year old radio installation, I decided to upgrade to a GNC 255. I actually like your original idea of the GNC355. It would get you a WAAS source (no you shouldn’t split the WAAS antenna, so downside would be an additional antenna install and wiring run).  Then you could keep the GNS 430 as #2.  You wouldn’t be able to get flight plan crossfill between non WAAS 430 and GNC. However you would be able to Bluetooth your flight plan from the GNC 355 to your iPad and back- this is a bonus for where you are geographically.  IFR in NY means multiple reroutes.  Saving workload is important.  Ok say that you go with the GNC 355.  Whats your CDI?  The KI209 and KI209A are both compatible.  But... DG vs HSI.  HSI saves workload.  I went for renting a G1000 to flying a six pack DG when I bought my 1977 J model - then installed an HSI and was like what was I thinking.  HSI saves workload and mental bandwidth.  You’d also gain a hole in the panel with the CDI delete. Now back to the autopilot- if you’re heart is set on the GFC that would be a good case for the G5 HSI now.  If you like the Stec, consider an Aspen but the PFD with the HSI instead of the E5.  You gain panel space and mental bandwidth.

Here’s my piecemeal upgraded J panel for reference.  She’s heading to the avionics shop for a GFC next month, thus the weird layout of the center stack.  I must have at least 150 hrs of labor in the panel at this point.  Keep that in mind as you explore your options.  These projects are a ton of labor. The reason I went  with the garmin stuff is two fold 1) I already had the navigator and was able to upgrade to a 430W for cheap, 2) the autopilot and 3) the garmin playground just works together despite my issues with lack of stated / marketed compatibility (I’ll be the first to admit begrudgingly that their marketing strategy worked on me/for me).

 

D732291B-F892-40BE-9A08-5D456444D076.jpeg

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On 1/1/2020 at 4:08 PM, dzeleski said:

There is also a stormscope that is functioning but is not serviceable as its a WX-900, I plan on removing this and either selling for parts or just junking I see no use for it

First of all congratulations on your beautiful Mooney!
Regarding stormscopes my feeling is that they’re not extremely useful in our airplanes. They were great back when they were installed. These days with XM and FIS-B improving refresh rates and their product suites there is really no need for them. Now having said that since it’s already in your panel and it works and you don't need the space I wouldn't remove it. The 900 although not serviceable as you mention, it is a series II stormscope which is current technology. So since it works I’d keep it but certainly I wouldn’t expend funds to repair it or “upgrade” it to another one as some folks do. I have a WX900 in my panel also which works great and that’s my philosophy. I don't plan on penetrating any storm cells in my Mooney or in anything else I fly so looking for lightning strikes is not top priority and a non- issue. 

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First of all congratulations on your beautiful Mooney!
Regarding stormscopes my feeling is that they’re not extremely useful in our airplanes. They were great back when they were installed but these days with XM and FIS-B there is really no need for them. Now having said that since it’s already in your panel and it works and you don't need the space I wouldn't remove it. The 900 although not serviceable as you mention, it is a series II stormscope which is current technology. So since it works I’d keep it but certainly I wouldn’t expend funds to repair it or “upgrade” it to another one as some folks do. I have a WX900 in my panel also which works great and that’s my philosophy. I don't plan on penetrating any storm cells in my Mooney or in anything else I fly so looking for lightning strikes is not top priority and a non- issue. 


AI contraire. For an serious IFR pilot concerned about not bending his plane, XM/FIS-B are not much more than amusement telling almost nothing about how the ride is going to be... a SS otoh tells her that the “red” stuff is just heavy precipitation or that there’s a cell building. The latter must be skirted, the former might get an inquiry from ATC: “3RW, say flight conditions”; “smooth ride in heavy precipitation.”




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Stormscope can be handy regardless of where it displays in IMC. You really will want to know what is out there when you cannot see beyond the end of the nose.

The only thing that would tell me is I should be back on the ground. No way is this pilot going to remain in IMC with that much activity. Storms in this part of the country simply move too quick or pop up out of nowhere. I’ll remain in VMC conditions, thank you.
I don’t trust lightning avionics that much.


Tom
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That’s good news.  Is it shipped, an a la carte update or still requires the unlock to the PFD firmware? 
 

never mind I googled that for myself.  Looks like it’s now standard and works with the EA100.  That’s good for aspen. They needed to do that. 
 

https://aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/evolution-e5-primary-flight-display/

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@EricJ Thanks for the recommendation on the MX 170C. I ended up finding one on Ebay for a decent price and swapped it out this morning. I now have a working secondary radio and the Nav side can pick up the VOR ID on the ground, the indicator woke up but I really wont know if its working until I flight test it and right now the weather is garbage. At least I have a working secondary radio now which is a big deal :)

My plan right now is to go the idf440 route, with a potential edm 700 to 730 upgrade or depending on cost I might just pull the trigger on the 900 ill need to get quotes on that though as I assume its gonna cost me 3-5k in labor. The gnc-355 is nice but the screen is really damn small (I have used a GNX-375) and in turbulence I think having the option of buttons and the touch screen is actually quite nice. I think this will give me a good platform to get my IR on and more. Next year ill hopefully go dual G5s and a GFC AP but we will see what happens by next year. Ill hopefully be able to use the GA-35 for the 440 and then pull the GPS data off the 440 and send that to the GDL-82.

 

20200104_175137954_iOS.jpg

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1 hour ago, dzeleski said:

My plan right now is to go the idf440 route,... Next year ill hopefully go dual G5s...

I would research the flat rate repair costs of Avidyne and get answers in writing before buying any of their products. Also I’d research how well dual G5s work with Avidyne. To avoid any unpleasant surprises.

Have you considered a GTN? Higher upfront cost for sure but a predictable and ideal fit to your future plans.
 

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1 hour ago, dzeleski said:

@EricJ Thanks for the recommendation on the MX 170C. I ended up finding one on Ebay for a decent price and swapped it out this morning. I now have a working secondary radio and the Nav side can pick up the VOR ID on the ground, the indicator woke up but I really wont know if its working until I flight test it and right now the weather is garbage. At least I have a working secondary radio now which is a big deal :)

My plan right now is to go the idf440 route, with a potential edm 700 to 730 upgrade or depending on cost I might just pull the trigger on the 900 ill need to get quotes on that though as I assume its gonna cost me 3-5k in labor. The gnc-355 is nice but the screen is really damn small (I have used a GNX-375) and in turbulence I think having the option of buttons and the touch screen is actually quite nice. I think this will give me a good platform to get my IR on and more. Next year ill hopefully go dual G5s and a GFC AP but we will see what happens by next year. Ill hopefully be able to use the GA-35 for the 440 and then pull the GPS data off the 440 and send that to the GDL-82.

Glad to hear you got com2 sorted!   You'll like the Avidyne.   I have an IFD540 with G5 and love it.

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When discussing keeping the blue side up in IMC...

It helps to have your AI on straight...

:)

+1 on avoiding thunderstorms in IMC...

It is really easy to say you will avoid them... until you find yourself in the middle of something that wasn’t there before you left the ground...

We all have a place to be on Monday, for some reason...

Get both tools that work... Strategic and tactical...

and don’t be afraid to call in sick... Tuesday is better than not showing up at all... :)

Best regards,

-a-

C56F08EC-F10B-4C7D-AF32-89D816CAF88B.jpeg

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  • 5 weeks later...

Figured I would post back with an update. I swapped out the edm700 for a 730 plus fuel flow. Removed the FP-5L. Swapped the 430 for the 440. Very pleased with the 440 so far... I am running into an issue with the glideslope on an ILS but I reached out to avidyne for some help on that (having an issue with a setting not sticking). The 730 does not have FF or data to/from the 440 yet and the 440 is not waas enabled as my appointment with my avionics shop isnt until the first week of March.

Thanks for the help :)

imageedit_1_7025285947.jpg

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5 hours ago, dzeleski said:

Figured I would post back with an update. I swapped out the edm700 for a 730 plus fuel flow. Removed the FP-5L. Swapped the 430 for the 440. Very pleased with the 440 so far... I am running into an issue with the glideslope on an ILS but I reached out to avidyne for some help on that (having an issue with a setting not sticking). The 730 does not have FF or data to/from the 440 yet and the 440 is not waas enabled as my appointment with my avionics shop isnt until the first week of March.

Thanks for the help :)

imageedit_1_7025285947.jpg

Man, this threat poopooed pretty badly...  in any case, I just wanted to give you the best budget solution I found.   You’re good to go on your navigator..   some push aspen and I can appreciate that since half the time, I fly behind one.   However, I found that dual G5’s with an Aera660 mounted vertically right next to them is a really awesome budge MFD with the strikefinder next to it.  Interface with your IFD and pipe in adsb using a gdl39 3D and you’re set.   The aera660 has synthetic vision and will get ahrs from the gdl all while being battery backup independent.  Flush mount all that stuff and you’re set.   I have this in my F and very happy

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