The Aeronauts

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Working in La Paz for a week like to killed me when I lived in Houston - from 40' MSL to 13,300' MSL at the airport and then you drop all the way down to only 9,600' or so where we worked. And I was amazed at the people who were smoking at that altitude. My first day there was usually highlighted by a roaring headache from lack of oxygen. But after a couple of weeks there and at our gold mine up at 13,500', mowing 5 acres with a push mower when I got home didn't even break a sweat.

Wow - no kidding.  That must have been an interesting job.

This old episode of top gear, the guys like Jeremy Clarkson are pretty funny to watch trying to drive over a 17,000ft mountain in their cars, and they pretty much give up at 6 min with splitting headaches.

[jaylw314]

I found this after some Google-fu.  Two interesting points:

• It sounds like they were not fully conscious past about 25,000' and another account I read reported that the actual max altitude is unknown because they neither were able to operate the instruments at the time
• The ascent rate was something like 500-800 fpm, so they would have gotten to 25,000' in less than an hour

Either way, it sounded like things were pretty hairy and depended on one guy's teeth...

The watching crowds were bigger on September 5th, 1862, and the weather kinder. What was different was the gas that filled "Mars". Mr Thomas Proud, Manager of the Wolverhampton Gas Works, had 'brewed' a particularly potent supply, capable of much more 'lift' than normal.

There was a fully-controlled launch within a couple of minutes of the 1.00 pm target, and Coxwell and Glaisher were elated to find themselves at a height of two miles in only 19 minutes.

The soaring rate of climb continued past the three and four mile mark.

Because the balloon's basket was unevenly loaded, the balloon canopy began to revolve, tangling the net. And, along with it, the valving rope that enabled gas to be released so that the balloon could descend.

As Glaisher patiently recorded what his instruments told him, the four mile and five mile mark were passed. Both men knew they are in line for a record. As Coxwell climbed into the rigging to free the valve line, Glaisher's eyesight began to deteriorate. He began to lose the power to move his arms and legs. His voice goes, his hearing fades. He passes out, his head sagging over the rim of the basket.

Coxwell, in the rigging, is frozen almost helpless with the cold. His hands are turning blue and black. He tumbles, rather than climbs down into the basket. The balloon is still rising. Coxwell seizes the gas valve rope in his teeth and pulls. The valve opens and the balloon begins to descend.

Neither man appreciates the situation until afterwards when the instruments are read. But they have reached the 37,000 feet mark. They are the first men into the Stratosphere.

Without oxygen, without pressure suits, without a protective cabin, seven miles high, they have penetrated into Jumbo Jet country. Unconscious and frozen under a balloon that would have gone on climbing until it burst.

What follows, as the balloon plunges downwards, is a classic British understatement*.

'Out of a thick darkness Glaisher hears the voice of his companion trying to rouse him: "Do try; now do". The darkness lightens. Dimly Glaisher sees the barometer tube, the other instruments, then the form of Coxwell bending over him, then gladness driving the anxiety from Coxwell's face.

"He sits upright, stretches himself as if awaking from a deep sleep and says:

"I have been insensible".

"You have", answers Coxwell, "and I too, very nearly".

"The first thing Glaisher does when he rises to his feet is to take a pencil and resume his observations.

'But he lays it aside as soon as he notices Coxwell's black, frost-bitten hands, and rubs them with brandy until the circulation is restored'.

All this time the balloon is racing downwards.

By throwing out ballast the descent is brought under control for a severe but safe landing at Cold Weston under the shadow of the Brown Clee Hill in Shropshire. In a straight line, the pair are only about twenty miles from their launch point.

As Coxwell begins to recover the balloon, Glaisher begins a six mile trudge into nearby Ludlow to get help. Perhaps he spends the time wondering about the fate of the pigeon that was thrown out when the balloon had fallen to the four mile mark.

It merely circled the balloon and finally perched on top of the envelope. Perhaps it was the one that returned to Wolverhampton two days later.

Glaisher made many more flights for the British Association, but never another like the September 5th, 1862 ascent from Wolverhampton.

---

* "Adventures Above The Clouds", Monk & Winter, Blackie, 1933

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I found this after some Google-fu.  Two interesting points:

• It sounds like they were not fully conscious past about 25,000' and another account I read reported that the actual max altitude is unknown because they neither were able to operate the instruments at the time
• The ascent rate was something like 500-800 fpm, so they would have gotten to 25,000' in less than an hour

Either way, it sounded like things were pretty hairy and depended on one guy's teeth...

The watching crowds were bigger on September 5th, 1862, and the weather kinder. What was different was the gas that filled "Mars". Mr Thomas Proud, Manager of the Wolverhampton Gas Works, had 'brewed' a particularly potent supply, capable of much more 'lift' than normal.

There was a fully-controlled launch within a couple of minutes of the 1.00 pm target, and Coxwell and Glaisher were elated to find themselves at a height of two miles in only 19 minutes.

The soaring rate of climb continued past the three and four mile mark.

Because the balloon's basket was unevenly loaded, the balloon canopy began to revolve, tangling the net. And, along with it, the valving rope that enabled gas to be released so that the balloon could descend.

As Glaisher patiently recorded what his instruments told him, the four mile and five mile mark were passed. Both men knew they are in line for a record. As Coxwell climbed into the rigging to free the valve line, Glaisher's eyesight began to deteriorate. He began to lose the power to move his arms and legs. His voice goes, his hearing fades. He passes out, his head sagging over the rim of the basket.

Coxwell, in the rigging, is frozen almost helpless with the cold. His hands are turning blue and black. He tumbles, rather than climbs down into the basket. The balloon is still rising. Coxwell seizes the gas valve rope in his teeth and pulls. The valve opens and the balloon begins to descend.

Neither man appreciates the situation until afterwards when the instruments are read. But they have reached the 37,000 feet mark. They are the first men into the Stratosphere.

Without oxygen, without pressure suits, without a protective cabin, seven miles high, they have penetrated into Jumbo Jet country. Unconscious and frozen under a balloon that would have gone on climbing until it burst.

What follows, as the balloon plunges downwards, is a classic British understatement*.

'Out of a thick darkness Glaisher hears the voice of his companion trying to rouse him: "Do try; now do". The darkness lightens. Dimly Glaisher sees the barometer tube, the other instruments, then the form of Coxwell bending over him, then gladness driving the anxiety from Coxwell's face.

"He sits upright, stretches himself as if awaking from a deep sleep and says:

"I have been insensible".

"You have", answers Coxwell, "and I too, very nearly".

"The first thing Glaisher does when he rises to his feet is to take a pencil and resume his observations.

'But he lays it aside as soon as he notices Coxwell's black, frost-bitten hands, and rubs them with brandy until the circulation is restored'.

All this time the balloon is racing downwards.

By throwing out ballast the descent is brought under control for a severe but safe landing at Cold Weston under the shadow of the Brown Clee Hill in Shropshire. In a straight line, the pair are only about twenty miles from their launch point.

As Coxwell begins to recover the balloon, Glaisher begins a six mile trudge into nearby Ludlow to get help. Perhaps he spends the time wondering about the fate of the pigeon that was thrown out when the balloon had fallen to the four mile mark.

It merely circled the balloon and finally perched on top of the envelope. Perhaps it was the one that returned to Wolverhampton two days later.

Glaisher made many more flights for the British Association, but never another like the September 5th, 1862 ascent from Wolverhampton.

---

* "Adventures Above The Clouds", Monk & Winter, Blackie, 1933

Ever wonder whose head befell those ballast sand bags they let drop?  I say sir!

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

Ever wonder whose head befell those ballast sand bags they let drop?  I say sir!

For that matter, I wonder what happens to the unlucky soul on the receiving end of a jettisoned external fuel tank?  I've been playing too much DCS  

[steingar]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:38 PM, M20F said:

I spend a lot of time at 11000-12000 and smoke the whole trip.

You really shouldn't.  Smoking is really really bad for you.  It diminishes your lung's ability to absorb oxygen, gives you cancer, makes you and everything around you smell vile and makes you appear low rent.  Far more poor people smoke than rich people.  Anyone found smoking in the halls of the Steinholme are assumed to be on fire and treated accordingly.

[Yetti]

Watched it.   Mrs Yetti thought it was entertaining.   Good story.    Seems like a sucky journey to embark on.

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, steingar said:

You really shouldn't.  Smoking is really really bad for you.  It diminishes your lung's ability to absorb oxygen, gives you cancer, makes you and everything around you smell vile and makes you appear low rent.  Far more poor people smoke than rich people.  Anyone found smoking in the halls of the Steinholme are assumed to be on fire and treated accordingly.

Slut-shaming a smoker doesn't work, and usually has the opposite effect when it comes from a non-smoker (and especially someone who's never  smoked).  I know because I smoked for about 25 years, 10 years proudly and 10 years with embarrassment.  M20F knows all the arguments against smoking.  He'll succeed in quitting when he's ready, but not before.  Trust me, I quit smoking 15-20 times before I was finally ready to really be a non-smoker.

I also smoked like a chimney between 10-12,000 in my first Mooney.  I was also under 35 years old, could run a 6:15 mile and a sub-44 minute 10K.  And then I got old.

[Mooneymite]

The key may be lack of any sort of physical exertion:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/04/21/305651780/you-can-survive-a-flight-in-a-jets-wheel-well-but-probably-wont

[steingar]

18 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Slut-shaming a smoker doesn't work, and usually has the opposite effect when it comes from a non-smoker (and especially someone who's never  smoked).  I know because I smoked for about 25 years, 10 years proudly and 10 years with embarrassment.  M20F knows all the arguments against smoking.  He'll succeed in quitting when he's ready, but not before.  Trust me, I quit smoking 15-20 times before I was finally ready to really be a non-smoker.

I also smoked like a chimney between 10-12,000 in my first Mooney.  I was also under 35 years old, could run a 6:15 mile and a sub-44 minute 10K.  And then I got old.

Not trying to slut shame anyone, more trying to educate.  When teaching Introductory Biology I had a bit of a rant, but most of it was the Biology of why smoking diminishes your lung capacity.  I carried out some of that research, so it is near and dear to my heart.  My thinking is the cancer risk is well known and obviously isn't affecting anyone's decision making if they're smoking.  However, the thought that they're diminishing their lung capacity with each and every cigarette is a bit more immediate.  I did this because I knew if I could get one student to stop smoking I would have saved my state my salary that year in reduced cancer care costs.

By the way, you can improve your health by quitting smoking, indeed it is the one thing that you can do that will most benefit your health.  But you will never ever regain that lost lung capacity no matter what you do.  It's gone and never coming back.  I know quite a few old people who still run like you claimed to.  My Chairman, who is in his sixties runs ultra marathons.  Sorry, it isn't just the age.

[Andy95W]

Yes, smokers know that smoking is bad for their lungs, arteries, and heart.  I'm glad of your research that shows just how extensive that damage is.  And I truly do believe you have M20Fs best interests at heart.

All I'm saying is that knowing all of those things didn't make it easier for me to quit.  What made it easier was finally getting to an age where I was finally ready to put it behind me.  (My 10K time is now about 53 minutes, but that's probably because I'm 20 years older and 30 pounds heavier.  I'm working on it.)

So, having been there, this is my tack for addressing a smoker:

@M20F- I hope you consider quitting.  And eventually, when you're ready, I really hope you're successful.

[M20F]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Slut-shaming

I have no shame in being a slut either ;-)

Suffice to say drinking, smoking, red meat, coffee, weed, cocaine, cigars, women, and the list goes on are bad for all of us.  Life without vices isn’t worth living.  My 30+ year instructor quit on the day I solo’ed (that is how good I am).  I don’t intend to and based on my level of spite, suspect I will outlive the majority of you  

Carpe diem - Jim Fixx

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, M20F said:

I have no shame in being a slut either ;-)

Suffice to say drinking, smoking, red meat, coffee, weed, cocaine, cigars, women, and the list goes on are bad for all of us.  Life without vices isn’t worth living.  My 30+ year instructor quit on the day I solo’ed (that is how good I am).  I don’t intend to and based on my level of spite, suspect I will outlive the majority of you  

Carpe diem - Jim Fixx

Yep, plan on being the exception to the rule and beating the odds. That's why the casinos in Vegas are thriving . . . . .

[M20F]

Just now, Hank said:

Yep, plan on being the exception to the rule and beating the odds. That's why the casinos in Vegas are thriving . . . . .

I think it is fair to say that almost without exception this forum consists of upper middle class and higher folks with extended education. I think we all know what we risk factors are.  

[aviatoreb]

Just now, M20F said:

I think it is fair to say that almost without exception this forum consists of upper middle class and higher folks with extended education. I think we all know what we risk factors are.  

Somehow I think even we are mostly not just upper middle class, but less so the 1% of the 1%er's as well, since those folk are flying around in jets flown by staff.

[Mooneymite]

55 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Somehow I think even we are mostly not just upper middle class, but less so the 1% of the 1%er's as well, since those folk are flying around in jets flown by staff.

I spend half my life flying the upper percentage around on private jets.  I can tell you for sure that they are just like Mooneyspace folk, only more so.  However, I have observed that fewer and fewer of them smoke. 

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

I spend half my life flying the upper percentage around on private jets.  I can tell you for sure that they are just like Mooneyspace folk, only more so.  However, I have observed that fewer and fewer of them smoke. 

Well cool.  And with your other half you are flying a Mooney and posting on Mooney space?  Are you posting on Gulfstreamspace during your working hours?

[Hank]

34 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Are you posting on Gulfstreamspace during your working hours?

I'm  not sure Gus flies anything that small . . . . .

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

I'm  not sure Gus flies anything that small . . . . .

Is he posting witty retort on Airbusspace then?

Edited January 7, 2020 by aviatoreb

[steingar]

16 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

I spend half my life flying the upper percentage around on private jets.  I can tell you for sure that they are just like Mooneyspace folk, only more so.  However, I have observed that fewer and fewer of them smoke. 

Smoking is by and large confined to the poor.  Rather counterintuitive, since the poor haven't the disposable income to purchase cigarettes, nor do they have the capital resources to deal with the cancer care.  Rich people from overseas smoke, everyone smokes overseas.  There's a law or something.

When you smoke cigarettes in America folks often assume you're poor for this reason.  And while the average participant on this site may be well educated, I doubt many are educated in Biology and Genetics, the most relevant disciplines.  So I speak my piece.  If I can convince someone to quit smoking I will have done them a great service.  I know, the odds are pretty long that I'll convince anyone of anything, but that'll never stop me from trying.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

Smoking is by and large confined to the poor.  Rather counterintuitive, since the poor haven't the disposable income to purchase cigarettes, nor do they have the capital resources to deal with the cancer care.

The working poor always have enough money for beer and cigarettes, whether they live somewhere clean and dry or not. Same for the non-working poor . . .

Me, I prioritize a decent home and a functional vehicle. And a Mooney . . . . .

3 hours ago, steingar said:

And while the average participant on this site may be well educated, I doubt many are educated in Biology and Genetics, the most relevant disciplines

Guilty as charged! Two college degrees, BSME and MSE. Never even had high school bio, much less anything in college. But grew up with a smoking father and grandfather, hated it enough that it's never been tempting to start.

Guess I need to watch The Aeronauts at some point, if I'm going to keep contributing to this thread.

[ilovecornfields]

4 hours ago, steingar said:

And while the average participant on this site may be well educated, I doubt many are educated in Biology and Genetics, the most relevant disciplines.  So I speak my piece.

Actually, Addiction Medicine is probably the most relevant discipline. ;-)

That’s not my field, but as someone who does counsel people on smoking cessation with some regularity and has received training in it maybe I can add something to the discussion.

First of all, I appreciate your desire to encourage the well being of your friends on Mooneyspace. Smoking and vaping are insults to the human body and will unquestionably hurt you. That is not up for debate so the real question is why do people do it and how do you encourage them to stop? That is a much more difficult question to answer and beyond the scope of online aviation forums. 

I did find an article which may provide some insight into addiction and potential strategies to help people who want to be helped. Maybe a good starting point for those interested in the subject:

http://www.cpe.vt.edu/gttc/presentations/8eStagesofChange.pdf

[aviatoreb]

55 minutes ago, Hank said:

Guess I need to watch The Aeronauts at some point, if I'm going to keep contributing to this thread.

It's the internet.  Why should not knowing anything prevent you from posting opinions on the topic?!

[Hank]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

It's the internet.  Why should not knowing anything prevent you from posting opinions on the topic?!

Especially when much of the posting is off-topic!

[Ibra]

On 1/8/2020 at 10:42 PM, Hyett6420 said:

My question would be why do the young START

Nothing useful to do with money and having no risk aversion? get them into gliding or power flying, you still have zero risk aversion but at least they will no longer afford to smoke