oldguyscanfly Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 I took my E for a Taxi and run-up today after being in the Avionics shop for nearly 3-1/2 months, and had a couple of surprises. Are Mooney controls interconnected? When sitting still or moving, engine running and not running, applying rudder in either direction causes aileron deflection in the direction of rudder application. Was not expecting this. I had dual G5's installed. Britten auto pilot was also removed. Left the PC system hooked up, mainly so it would provide vacuum to the step. The right aileron servo has a known leak. There is a noticeable deflection force to the left, easily (kind of) overcome, and goes away if the cut-out button on the yoke is depressed. Is this due to the servo leak? What will happen in flight? Will I have to hold the cut out button continuously to keep if from doing something crazy? My Mooney instructor and I are planning to fly it home tomorrow, depending on how we can resolve these issues. I have a brand new (rebuilt by Britten) servo. Debating whether to install it, or remove/permanently disable the system, as autopilot is next on the horizon. Any comments or advise would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 they are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted December 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 Thanks, I see that now that I've dug through my mountain of paperwork that came with my baby, and found a control schematic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 You can disable the PC system by pulling the button out of the yoke (don't lose it), might be a little tough if it's stuck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted December 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 Thanks Again, That will be better than using the duct tape I had planned to take with me lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasturepilot Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 A produce rubber band or a 35 mm film canister will work to keep the button down as well. if you’ve got a good servo, swap it in. Should fix that leak. I fixed a series of leaks in mine which always revealed others. Took a little time to get it squared away, but the system is pretty straightforward once you’ve messed with it a little. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 Aileron and rudder are interconnected by spring. A working PC will actually cause the aileron to roll the opposite way when turning on the ground. A leak in a PC that causes roll makes for long flights unless disabled. You should see if you can eventually get it working. A working PC and a working Brittain autopilot are as good as many modern units. As a side note, the Pc is not required for the step, they are independent. Also, retrofit electric kit for the step is also available should you decide you want to rid yourself of the vacuum altogether. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 Oh, also, I don’t recommend rudder movement on ground when not rolling. I’ve seen the weld on the rudder bar break and that is a major PIA to change.... if you can easily move the rudder when sitting still, you likely have lots of wear in the system already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, oldguyscanfly said: I took my E for a Taxi and run-up today after being in the Avionics shop for nearly 3-1/2 months, and had a couple of surprises. Are Mooney controls interconnected? When sitting still or moving, engine running and not running, applying rudder in either direction causes aileron deflection in the direction of rudder application. Was not expecting this. I had dual G5's installed. Britten auto pilot was also removed. Left the PC system hooked up, mainly so it would provide vacuum to the step. The right aileron servo has a known leak. There is a noticeable deflection force to the left, easily (kind of) overcome, and goes away if the cut-out button on the yoke is depressed. Is this due to the servo leak? What will happen in flight? Will I have to hold the cut out button continuously to keep if from doing something crazy? My Mooney instructor and I are planning to fly it home tomorrow, depending on how we can resolve these issues. I have a brand new (rebuilt by Britten) servo. Debating whether to install it, or remove/permanently disable the system, as autopilot is next on the horizon. Any comments or advise would be appreciated. What was your reasoning in removing the Brittain Auto pilot unit? Edited December 20, 2019 by Shadrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted December 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 Thanks to all for the replies! After the comments, and looking at the schematics for the control and PC system, I have a better understanding of it all, and am more comfortable with doing the flight. The rudder system is very tight, and just a slight pressure gave me the aileron movement while not moving. The decision to remove the autopilot was mainly to eliminate the vacuum system. I am aware of the electric step conversion, and plan to do that. Also to make room in the stack for future autopilot, if BK or Garmin ever get it together for the E. It was also inop, according to the previous owner. The avionics shop recommended keeping the PC system in place until we can move forward with an autopilot. The leak wasn't discovered until yesterday. My avionics guy rummaged around in his store room and came out with a still "fresh in the bag" from Britten servo, said he'd give it to me. I would imagine there would be other leaks to deal with also, though the tubing I can see looks to be in pretty good shape. So that leads to a final question- does a working PC system enhance flight characteristics that much? Is it worth fixing, or since removal is pending (could be at least a year?) should I just permanently disable it? Thanks to all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflt Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, oldguyscanfly said: Thanks to all for the replies! After the comments, and looking at the schematics for the control and PC system, I have a better understanding of it all, and am more comfortable with doing the flight. The rudder system is very tight, and just a slight pressure gave me the aileron movement while not moving. The decision to remove the autopilot was mainly to eliminate the vacuum system. I am aware of the electric step conversion, and plan to do that. Also to make room in the stack for future autopilot, if BK or Garmin ever get it together for the E. It was also inop, according to the previous owner. The avionics shop recommended keeping the PC system in place until we can move forward with an autopilot. The leak wasn't discovered until yesterday. My avionics guy rummaged around in his store room and came out with a still "fresh in the bag" from Britten servo, said he'd give it to me. I would imagine there would be other leaks to deal with also, though the tubing I can see looks to be in pretty good shape. So that leads to a final question- does a working PC system enhance flight characteristics that much? Is it worth fixing, or since removal is pending (could be at least a year?) should I just permanently disable it? Thanks to all.... I have an older C model that had the PC system install as an accessory, it has an on off button instead of the push button on the yoke. I love not having the PC system for most of my flights, infact the only time I turn it on is for longer flights when I want a bit of a break. I say a bit of a break because it still tends to wonder when engaged but the alt portion does a pretty good job once trimmed. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 I love having the PC and AFCS. It takes a little getting used to pushing the button, but I’ve been doing it so long I don’t notice. The key is having it set up correctly. People are paying extra now for the blue wings level button. Britain was doing it over 50 years ago. Really reduces workload, in my opinion. I would have to pay over $5k, maybe $10k, to get the same features. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 Read the ground test section of the Brittian POH supplement..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflt Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Yetti said: Read the ground test section of the Brittian POH supplement..... I have a controller that has not been supported since I bought my plane, brittian said I could upgrade if I could find the parts but since I do not use it a lot it wasn't worth the expense. I will eventually install a newer autopilot when one gets certified for the older C models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted December 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 Update- First flight was uneventful, and the PC system preformed as expected, so I guess a lot of worry about nothing. We did have a battery charging issue, and was unable to bring her back home to KFCH. Since I had to leave the plane there, having the shop replace the leaking servo while they sort the electrical issue. That being said, my first Mooney flight was wonderful! She flies straight and true, and was amazed at the speed/power settings. 1.5 hrs, and five landings, big smile still on my face two days later! Flying the PA28R 180 back to Fresno seemed really slow lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 22, 2019 Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 Great pirep, Oldguyscan...! Thanks for sharing. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigD Posted December 29, 2019 Report Share Posted December 29, 2019 When I purchased my 65 C I flew it from California to Ohio with a non-working PC which I had been told was inop. Once I looked into it, I found an easy to fix leaky aileron servo. I was amazed at how much easier to fly the plane was after that. I’d recommend trying to keep the Positive Control system if you can. If you do decide to take it out, you’ll find many here interested in it, a testament to how many of us enjoy the systems. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguyscanfly Posted December 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2019 Since 69Q had to stay in the shop- (Generator failure on first flight, upgrading to a Plane Power alternator) I'm going to have the servo replaced. I can see the benefits of the PC system if I can get it working correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 29, 2019 Report Share Posted December 29, 2019 While involved with the alternator... Take a look at the starter... Its a very similar job... old heavy one comes out, new lighter one goes in... Make sure you get the seals adjusted to keep the airflow around / through the cowl for engine cooling... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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