Keep Your Speed Up

[Skates97]

When you are asked to "Keep your speed up," what speed do you fly and until how far out. Let's assume you are on a straight in approach. On a straight in, by five miles I like to have my gear out (120 mph) and be slowing down even more. There have been a couple of occasions where I have kept the gear tucked up until about 2-3 miles but I find that then I end up coming in high from trying to slow down to gear speed and my landings while passable are less than stellar.

So, what is your SOP when told to "Keep your speed up?"

[MooneyMitch]

For myself, the answer is a huge variable...... each situation can be quite different.

My D/C is quite performance flexible and can change flight configurations fast!

First off, I use situational awareness.  What’s going on, who’s where, and what’s dictating the “keep your speed up”.  That information tells me how much speed to keep up.  Then I set my speed..... all subject to change based on the continued situation, including further requests, or lack thereof, from controller.

In short, I don’t have a goal speed to set..... it all depends.

 

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

When you are asked to "Keep your speed up," what speed do you fly and until how far out. Let's assume you are on a straight in approach. On a straight in, by five miles I like to have my gear out (120 mph) and be slowing down even more. There have been a couple of occasions where I have kept the gear tucked up until about 2-3 miles but I find that then I end up coming in high from trying to slow down to gear speed and my landings while passable are less than stellar.

So, what is your SOP when told to "Keep your speed up?"

In Bravo airspace I hold IAS at whatever it is when the instruction is given. If that's not feasible then I tell them what is.  I hold said speed as long as practicable.  under normal circumstances I have the gear down and locked at 2 miles from threshold or abeam the numbers depending on the type of approach. If asked to keep my speed up at a busy Bravo airport I start slowing to gear speed at 2 miles out and drop the gear as soon as I am at 120mph.  This method is not without risks.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Shadrach

[MooneyMitch]

Furthermore, I enjoy varied situations and challenges this can present.  I enjoy being flexible and being able to respond/adjust as needed...... keeps me on my toes.   It makes me know I’m flying the airplane, it’s not flying me.

[Ricky_231]

Where I fly, traffic is mostly flight school 172s, so I assume when they say keep your speed up they mean 100 knots which is already too slow for me anyway. If I'm in front of a jet, they'll likely ask me to get out of the way (a 360). I have however been issued/asked to slow down a few times to avoid running over the cessnas :-). 

What really gets me is that ATC will sometimes keep me high (above 9000ft) up to very close to the terminal area on visual approaches, then tell me to descend to 2000ft AND slow down to approach speed, all within a few miles from the field. I find that pretty hard to do - I can descend but will definitely be a little fast, or I can slow down, but will take me a while to get down. Speed brakes help but they don't perform miracles.

 

[MIm20c]

5 miles seems like a long way out. I keep things clean and fast but I’m very careful with altitude. I make sure I reach pattern altitude a little early and level off to reduce speed and pull the gear (abeam, 2 miles, glide slope).  Without a three blade and speed brakes I’m unable to bleed off speed while descending. 

[Bravoman]

I do my best to accommodate ATC but will not do anything contrary to the way I like to approach and land.

[Ricky_231]

4 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

5 miles seems like a long way out. I keep things clean and fast but I’m very careful with altitude. I make sure I reach pattern altitude a little early and level off to reduce speed and pull the gear (abeam, 2 miles, glide slope).  Without a three blade and speed brakes I’m unable to bleed off speed while descending. 

Agreed - when VFR getting to pattern altitude a little early in my opinion makes for a much more stable (and smooth) approach/landing. Trying to slow down and descend all at once is not great for passengers, add to that trying to stay under bravo shelves etc. can get tricky. I like taking it easy and making it as comfortable as possible for everyone. 

IFR is more complicated - but I learnt that asking ATC to descend you early, before they even think about it, helps. They might not be able to do it right away, but they'll do it sooner than usual I find.

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, Ricky_231 said:

Where I fly, traffic is mostly flight school 172s, so I assume when they say keep your speed up they mean 100 knots which is already too slow for me anyway. If I'm in front of a jet, they'll likely ask me to get out of the way (a 360). I have however been issued/asked to slow down a few times to avoid running over the cessnas :-). 

What really gets me is that ATC will sometimes keep me high (above 9000ft) up to very close to the terminal area on visual approaches, then tell me to descend to 2000ft AND slow down to approach speed, all within a few miles from the field. I find that pretty hard to do - I can descend but will definitely be a little fast, or I can slow down, but will take me a while to get down. Speed brakes help but they don't perform miracles.

 

I've been given the "STUKA" arrival into Philly a few times...

[Ricky_231]

Just now, Bravoman said:

I do my best to accommodate ATC but will not do anything contrary to the way I like to approach and land.

Sure - but when ATC tells you "we're keeping you high because of traffic and are trying to sequence you in", what are you going to do? Tell them "no, get me down now!"? Doesn't really work that way... at least not around here. The compromise ends up being ATC tells me to slow down and get down, and I tell them I can do one but probably not both, and they'll vector me far far away to give me some room. 

Like I said above, I now learnt to ask them to descend waaaay early - seems to help.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I do my best to accommodate ATC but will not do anything contrary to the way I like to approach and land.

I won't do anything unsafe or unreasonable, but if I only accepted instructions I liked, I would not be here writing this...I'd have run out of fuel years ago waiting for ATC to see things my way.

[Bravoman]

I have said unable and asked to be resequenced on a few occasions when I didn’t like the sound of things. Thankfully,  this hasn’t been necessary very much over the years.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Bravoman

[MooneyMitch]

4 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I have said unable and asked to be resequenced on a few occasions when I didn’t like the sound of things. Thankfully,  this hasn’t been necessary very much over the years.

Indeed!

[RobertGary1]

To me it means try to hold about 130 knots down the ILS. I usually cook it in on the ILS. I figure that should be enough to not cause too much issue with the 737's ahead and behind me. Around 500' you don't have much choice but to slow down to gear speed but at that point you're almost on the ground and off the runway.

 

-Robert

[EricJ]

Once when they asked me I was still about six miles out descending at about 160kts, so I just held that.   More often they're asking me to slow down as I get closer to the pattern.

[ArtVandelay]

Question, does pulling throttle back to slow idle during cruise flight hurt anything? I’ve heard you don’t want to drive the prop from the wind, but don’t know if it’s true or not.

I’m not worried about shock cooling.

 

 

Tom

 

[Danb]

Going into PBI West Palm a couple years ago I was asked to maintain at or above 160, ok, closing in on the runway I slowed to lower the gear and get ready to land then was changed to the right runway since I didn’t comply, seems like I ticked off the tower since I couldn’t land at 160, they should have given the right runway all along than being unreasonable, I think it was over 3000 feet so no issue. I got the sense they didn’t want piston aircraft there let alone piston singles, I don’t recall seeing any piston singles on the ramp.

[Ricky_231]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Question, does pulling throttle back to slow idle during cruise flight hurt anything? I’ve heard you don’t want to drive the prop from the wind, but don’t know if it’s true or not.

I’m not worried about shock cooling.

 

 

Tom

 

My POH says to avoid idle on long shallow descents to prevent prop driving engine that can lead to engine cooling below minimum temperature (monitor CHT >250F). POH says to add enough power to prevent that from happening (doesn't specify how much).

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, Ricky_231 said:

then tell me to descend to 2000ft AND slow down to approach speed, all within a few miles from the field. I find that pretty hard to do - I can descend but will definitely be a little fast, or I can slow down, but will take me a while to get down. Speed brakes help but they don't perform miracles.

Something that works for me in good weather, just 3nm from airfield at 6000ft, I slow down to near the stall at 60kts with full flaps/gear down, sink rate is roughly 1500fpm, by then I am at 2000ft overhead 

The engine still runs at 55% power so no worry on that but it is just the high nose does not help to watch for other traffic but the reason I stay high is I want to keep flying in controlled airspace...

Drag curve on moden mooneys is steep 5kts above stall and allmost flat at gear extension speed but I do stop the slow speed show at 1500ft-2000ft 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ibra

[gsxrpilot]

I've been asked lots of time to "keep your speed up". But I've never been given a specific number. I always acknowledge and confirm that I will... but then I fly exactly the speed I want to fly. I'm pretty comfortable landing fast. I was demonstrating a landing this morning that was over the numbers at 90 knots. And typically if I'm in an environment where I'm likely to get such a request, the runway is LONG. So my SOP is to acknowledge and comply... which means I'll fly as fast as I'm comfortable flying... which very well might be exactly the speed I'm already flying.

On the other topic, my understanding is that the prop starts driving the engine below 15" MP. So I avoid reducing power below 15" until I'm in the pattern. But then I have speed brakes and they allow me to cheat on the speed as well. 

[Ibra]

39 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Question, does pulling throttle back to slow idle during cruise flight hurt anything? I’ve heard you don’t want to drive the prop from the wind, but don’t know if it’s true or not

Thermal shock as long as you let things cool down or warm up slowly it should be OK, for mechanical loads, as mentioned when engine is at Idle having propeller rpm in the efficient mid-range does drive too much aerodynamic load back to the engine, something like MP<15 and 22>RPM>15 to be avoided, it is better to have it feathered or flat when the engine is not running  

[ArtVandelay]

Let me just say I’m disappointed in my brethren, y’all are flying too slow, we should be asked to slow down!


Tom

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Question, does pulling throttle back to slow idle during cruise flight hurt anything? I’ve heard you don’t want to drive the prop from the wind, but don’t know if it’s true or not.

I’m not worried about shock cooling.

 

 

Tom

 

In the decathlon the procedure was to go full power through the top of the loop. At the top, near stall at full power bring power back to idle and pull the nose through nose down. Once above the horizon go back to pull power as the plane slows again near the top of the loop. Wash, rinse, repeat until air sick. 

Ask me again if shock cooling is a thing. 
 

-Robert 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Question, does pulling throttle back to slow idle during cruise flight hurt anything? I’ve heard you don’t want to drive the prop from the wind, but don’t know if it’s true or not.

I’m not worried about shock cooling.

 

 

Tom

 

lots of old wives tails surrounding this question.  The short answer is no as long as the prop is in the approved rpm range for constant operations. The genesis of this old adage (like so many) comes from old radials which have a single rod journal taking the powerstroke of each piston in that bank. Flat engine rod journals are not asked to do nearly as much.  Once again we find that Mr. Deakin explained this in detail some time ago.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Ibra said:

Something that works for me in good weather, just 3nm from airfield at 6000ft, I slow down to near the stall at 60kts with full flaps/gear down, sink rate is roughly 1500fpm, by then I am at 2000ft overhead 

The engine still runs at 55% power so no worry on that but it is just the high nose does not help to watch for other traffic but the reason I stay high is I want to keep flying in controlled airspace...

Drag curve on moden mooneys is steep 5kts above stall and allmost flat at gear extension speed but I do stop the slow speed show at 1500ft-2000ft 

 

Preach brother, that's my short field procedure except for I take it all the way into ground effect.  Any airplane slowed to the back side of the drag curve, power off,  will descend like an elevator.  

Edited December 18, 2019 by Shadrach