Cirrus Auto Land Questions

[cliffy]

1) With triple redundant autoflight systems in CATIII approved aircraft (for Autoland capability) I wonder how the "complexity" of the Cirrus Autoland system will change from the early (now) design until the 3rd or 4th rendition for full certification?

2) With the current 737 MAX situation and the black eye the FAA took with it I wonder how complex the testing and system will eventually be for Cirrus to get it approved EVEN for emergency only use? 

3) With the "Autoland" capability for emergencies, how far of a stretch is it to Normal Full Autoland capability in every day operations for Pt 91 operations?  600 foot RVRs? 

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, cliffy said:

1) With triple redundant autoflight systems in CATIII approved aircraft (for Autoland capability) I wonder how the "complexity" of the Cirrus Autoland system will change from the early (now) design until the 3rd or 4th rendition for full certification?

2) With the current 737 MAX situation and the black eye the FAA took with it I wonder how complex the testing and system will eventually be for Cirrus to get it approved EVEN for emergency only use? 

3) With the "Autoland" capability for emergencies, how far of a stretch is it to Normal Full Autoland capability in every day operations for Pt 91 operations?  600 foot RVRs? 

Did Cirrus announce auto land?

[Marauder]

Did Cirrus announce auto land?

On the Cirrus Jet


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[kortopates]

One would think getting approval for emergency use only would be far easier than pursuing certification for every day non-emergency use - but certification process is beyond me.

Personally if and when autoland makes it to the piston fleet, such as Mooney's, of greater interest to me would be seeing the auto land capability expanded to engine out and partial power approach and landing. You'd think the software could handle a max glide profile and adjust VSR to make a successful landing without to much extension from it current autoland capability. 

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, Marauder said:

On the Cirrus Jet

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...oh right!  Thanks.

[ArtVandelay]

One would think getting approval for emergency use only would be far easier than pursuing certification for every day non-emergency use - but certification process is beyond me.
Personally if and when autoland makes it to the piston fleet, such as Mooney's, of greater interest to me would be seeing the auto land capability expanded to engine out and partial power approach and landing. You'd think the software could handle a max glide profile and adjust VSR to make a successful landing without to much extension from it current autoland capability. 

I’d also a unresponsive pilot functionality, and autoland at the closest towered airport, this require auto throttle (FADEC?) and transponder control (to switch to 7700 so ATC can clear the way).


Tom

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, kortopates said:

One would think getting approval for emergency use only would be far easier than pursuing certification for every day non-emergency use - but certification process is beyond me.

Personally if and when autoland makes it to the piston fleet, such as Mooney's, of greater interest to me would be seeing the auto land capability expanded to engine out and partial power approach and landing. You'd think the software could handle a max glide profile and adjust VSR to make a successful landing without to much extension from it current autoland capability. 

I think this new autopilot emergency auto land concept is quite a thing - its a lot a lot a lot more significant and involved than simply certifying a new gps.  Or even a new autopilot.  It is way more complex than simply all the several mechanical and electronic things.  This one will require a new set of procedures for the entire airspace. New training material and testing will need to be developed for all the air traffic controllers as to new procedures to be developed for what to do and how to handle airplanes where the emergency auto land feature was activated.  This is no small deal.  One thing can be certain is they won't simply leave the air traffic controllers to "wing it" when it happens.

Edited December 15, 2019 by aviatoreb

[carusoam]

Practicing with the non-flying spouse should be an interesting step in the process....

Trying to get this into conversation is going to be more interesting than parachutes...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I think this new autopilot emergency auto land concept is quite a thing - its a lot a lot a lot more significant and involved than simply certifying a new gps.  Or even a new autopilot.  It is way more complex than simply all the several mechanical and electronic things.  This one will require a new set of procedures for the entire airspace. New training material and testing will need to be developed for all the air traffic controllers as to new procedures to be developed for what to do and how to handle airplanes where the emergency auto land feature was activated.  This is no small deal.  One thing can be certain is they won't simply leave the air traffic controllers to "wing it" when it happens.

I don't know. Soon as an aircraft squawks 7600 or 7700 the controller starts moving all IFR and participating VFR traffic out of the way. The Autoland feature includes making announcements over the radio of it intentions - which will be very helpful to controllers. I don't know that this constitutes anything really different for the controllers other than this is a automated capability and could be miss used intentionally or unintentionally. But totally agree its very significant and relies on much more than what today's conventional piston autopilot technology can support. I do hope we see it make it way to piston aircraft.

[kortopates]

26 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I’d also a unresponsive pilot functionality, and autoland at the closest towered airport, this require auto throttle (FADEC?) and transponder control (to switch to 7700 so ATC can clear the way).


Tom

Unresponsive or unconscious, such like a hypoxia event, would be great! Avionics could even detect an emergency warranting low O2 Sat, or seemingly cardiac arrest from loss of heart rate with a wearable device but also something that could generate a lot of false alarms. But I am sure those are solvable by simply given the pilot time to override.  

[aviatoreb]

26 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I don't know. Soon as an aircraft squawks 7600 or 7700 the controller starts moving all IFR and participating VFR traffic out of the way. The Autoland feature includes making announcements over the radio of it intentions - which will be very helpful to controllers. I don't know that this constitutes anything really different for the controllers other than this is a automated capability and could be miss used intentionally or unintentionally. But totally agree its very significant and relies on much more than what today's conventional piston autopilot technology can support. I do hope we see it make it way to piston aircraft.

I could be wrong.  But it is my experience working for the government.  Lots of new training required for how to apply the new paper clips in a respectful and compliant manner when the office orders new paper clips.

I hope emergency autoland boils down to us too.

Edited December 15, 2019 by aviatoreb

[ArtVandelay]

Unresponsive or unconscious, such like a hypoxia event, would be great! Avionics could even detect an emergency warranting low O2 Sat, or seemingly cardiac arrest from loss of heart rate with a wearable device but also something that could generate a lot of false alarms. But I am sure those are solvable by simply given the pilot time to override.  

Or go simple: if no xmit button has been push for some (configurable) time, flash annunciator push button with alarm (similar to master caution on TBMs), no response in 10 seconds then enable emergency autoland.
Of course if you fall asleep....

[Marauder]

Or go simple: if no xmit button has been push for some (configurable) time, flash annunciator push button with alarm (similar to master caution on TBMs), no response in 10 seconds then enable emergency autoland.
Of course if you fall asleep....

That is already on the Cirrus Turbos. You need to hit an acknowledgement button periodically when you’re in rare air territory.

The autoland capability is pretty sophisticated from the demo that Cirrus showed. It is literally a one button function and takes care of everything from selecting the airport, communicating, setting the transponder to 7700 to full power and flap management.

But then again, for $300k, you’d expect those little extras.


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[Nick Pilotte]

I’m not an industry expert but have read and spoken to a lot of people regarding this Garmin feature. It was first introduced in the Piper M600 and will soon be ready (if not already at this point) for the SF50.  There was a really interesting podcast from Aviation News Talk about it and there are demos of it on YouTube.  I’m intrigued by it, seriously actually.  It will select the best airport and runway based off conditions, and can land in 0/0 conditions because it is GPS based.  Supposedly it will squawk for you, initiate the decent, continue an auto-broadcast of the emergency to ATC including changing channels as needed when moving through airspace.  It even initiated an engine shutdown after auto-braking the plane. I found this Avweb article too. 

I do believe the hardware is something like $140k right now so a retrofit to a smaller plane isn’t likely, but maybe installations into future product will occur. 

[ArtVandelay]

That is already on the Cirrus Turbos. You need to hit an acknowledgement button periodically when you’re in rare air territory.

The autoland capability is pretty sophisticated from the demo that Cirrus showed. It is literally a one button function and takes care of everything from selecting the airport, communicating, setting the transponder to 7700 to full power and flap management.

But then again, for $300k, you’d expect those little extras.

Does it have auto throttle?


Tom

[Marauder]

11 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Does it have auto throttle?


Tom

Nope, it is primarily designed to engage the autopilot and I believe do a descent to a pre-select altitude (10k seems to ring a bell). I will see if I can find more details but I am fairly certain auto throttles are not part of the deal.

[Marauder]

28 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Does it have auto throttle?


Tom

Here is the link. Called "Perspective Pilot": https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-perspective/

[cliffy]

The idea that it could be certified for emergency use to any airport it selects brings about the intriguing thought of morphing into its use on a "normal" basis for zero-zero landings at most airports. Basically making most any airport a CAT III airport without the required "capture"  ILS system and/or no required approach lighting system. This would require a completely new thought process by the FAA .

If it ever got to that point getting from the runway to the ramp may be the hardest part of the landing. Who among you has tried to taxi to the ramp after a CAT III landing?  :-) :-)

BTW, if you're spending 800K for a new airplane what's another 100K for "no weather restrictions on landing" capability? 

Edited December 16, 2019 by cliffy
add text

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, cliffy said:

The idea that it could be certified for emergency use to any airport it selects brings about the intriguing thought of morphing into its use on a "normal" basis for zero-zero landings at most airports. Basically making most any airport a CAT III airport without the required "capture"  ILS system and/or no required approach lighting system. This would require a completely new thought process by the FAA .

If it ever got to that point getting from the runway to the ramp may be the hardest part of the landing. Who among you has tried to taxi to the ramp after a CAT III landing?  :-) :-)

Ha! That taxiing to the ramp comment brings back memories. I was flying home on a day VFR flight from southern NY to my airport outside of Rochester. As I was getting closer, I noticed a cloud layer heading towards my airport. When I got to the downwind leg, I realized that this cloud layer was actually a fog bank and it was just reaching the departure end of the runway I was landing on. I landed in sunny skies and rolled into the fog bank. I had the foresight to turn on the runway lights but it made no difference. I couldn't even see the runway lights from the centerline. I shut down the plane and called the FBO to ask to have someone help me hand tow the plane off of the runway.

[cliffy]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Here is the link. Called "Perspective Pilot": https://cirrusaircraft.com/cirrus-perspective/

You want to show HOW to sell to the non-pilot wife? Just let her read this "perspective"

I learned a long time ago in corporate flying- you take care of the wife and you have a job forever!

You want to sell 3/4 mil airplanes? Sell to the wife!

THAT is how you sell airplanes to the newer generations!!!!!!!!!   The "perception" is SAFETY and perception sells whether or not its a reality.

Clean simple, easy to understand for the non-pilot presentation. Perfect sales presentation. 

Cirrus does have the better mouse trap right now. For sales anyway. 

[cliffy]

5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Ha! That taxiing to the ramp comment brings back memories. I was flying home on a day VFR flight from southern NY to my airport outside of Rochester. As I was getting closer, I noticed a cloud layer heading towards my airport. When I got to the downwind leg, I realized that this cloud layer was actually a fog bank and it was just reaching the departure end of the runway I was landing on. I landed in sunny skies and rolled into the fog bank. I had the foresight to turn on the runway lights but it made no difference. I couldn't even see the runway lights from the centerline. I shut down the plane and called the FBO to ask to have someone help me hand tow the plane off of the runway.

That happens at KSMO a lot with the fog banks in the summer. East end open west end foggy. Used to takeoff in my C 140 clear skies going west and enter the fog at 100-200 feet. 

[Gagarin]

But, but, isn't the chute an autoland option with no airport or pilot required. The CATIII that I know requires triple ILS dual IRS, dual RA and dual CATIII autopilot system, pilot training and runway FAA approved lights.

[ArtVandelay]

But, but, isn't the chute an autoland option with no airport or pilot required. The CATIII that I know requires triple ILS dual IRS, dual RA and dual CATIII autopilot system, pilot training and runway FAA approved lights.

But none of that is required for an emergency.

 

 

Tom

[cliffy]

But that is why I said "new way of thinking:". No longer will they have to think in terms of ILS, Triple Redundant A/Ps, approach lighting systems, etc, etc,   Think Syn-vision, GPS LPV etc etc. Auto capability monitoring and rejection for failure Etc. 

[Bryan]

18 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Did Cirrus announce auto land?

No, Cirrus didn't develop the auto land, Garmin did. 

The demonstration video showed the autoland feature on a Piper M600 turboprop.  Yes, the SF50 (Cirrus Jet) is also another airframe expected to be certified for its release as well.