I have a number for you... advise when ready to copy

[Skates97]

14 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

If I used "he" would you have asked that question?

I suppose we won't know, just like we don't know why you chose "her" instead of "he."

Back on topic, I agree there shouldn't be an "I'm first" mentality in the air. I am reminded of the conversation I had with Alan when he was out this way asking what is wrong with the driver's on the freeways here in CA. I'm constantly amazed by the number of times someone feels the need to squeeze in before me just to get off at the exit when there is 20 car lengths of empty road behind me. I think sometimes that carries through into operations in the air.

I appreciate when ATC tries to work me in. A few times back flying into Mesa Gateway (KIWA) we were told to enter a left base for 30L which then changed to asking us to make straight for the numbers. He was trying to get us on the ground before an Airbus that was coming in. We went straight for the numbers and didn't straighten out to runway heading until at the displaced threshold and we were easily out of the way for the Airbus. As we taxied into the FBO he was exiting the runway.

My biggest takeaway from this whole discussion is a reminder that when at a towered field the tower can ask me to go around anytime. I think I have gotten complacent thinking that while yes, I may need to go around, it would be something I decided to do, not something the tower may tell me to do. The only time someone else has told me to go around was when I was doing my CFI did during my PPL training, the DPE on my checkride, and a CFI when having a flight review. 

[Shadrach]

On 12/15/2019 at 1:32 AM, 201er said:

I don’t think the tower has any obligation to call you. I’m pretty sure under such circumstances it’s customary to ask tower their phone number rather than demand they call yours.

No obligation but It's a good idea for them to defuse a situation with a conversation no matter who is calling who.  I have witnessed a number of ATC screw ups (the number pales in comparison to the number of pilot screw ups I've heard).   

I have had some interesting interactions with controllers over the last few decades.  Last year I departed from Annapolis (inside the DC SFRA) I was northwest bound for my home base. After take off, I could not get a word in on the freq for about 3 mins as the controller was as busy as any I've ever heard and was not pausing in between calls.  I was squawking the correct code and waiting patiently. In the midst of the staccato ATC calls the controller barked "N6339Q are you on freq?". I replied that I had been on freq since since departure and waiting for a brake to check in (I am not a shrinking violet on the radio he was just that damn busy). He politely tells me that I should have checked in immediately upon departure.  I replied that my only option would have been step on existing transmissions (there were several blocked transmissions while I was waiting). He curtly repeated his original statement and cleared me on course heading. Two sectors later with different controller as I am departing the SFRA I get chewed on freq for the earlier incident. I was lectured about flying in the SFRA without establishing radio communication with ATC. This controller who was not on the freq in which the problem occurred and is talking down to me like I just decided to fly through some of the most restricted airspace in the world willy-nilly....  I thanked him for his opinion, reiterated my familiarity with the rules and restated the challenges with the first sector.  I then told him that I would be happy to escalate things and asked for a number to call the Potomac TRACON supervisor so that we could go over the recording together so I might learn when I should have transmitted.  He gave me a number. I read it back.  He confirmed... 

I called after the plane was put away.  The number given was for the Florida Budget Cruise Vacation hotline... I thought about looking up the correct number and calling but I appreciated the prank so much that I let it go...

 

[Shadrach]

16 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

If I used "he" would you have asked that question?

On a forum populated with members >90% male, no; if you were speaking at a Ninety-Nines event, absolutely!

Edited December 17, 2019 by Shadrach

[RobertGary1]

On 12/15/2019 at 3:45 AM, skykrawler said:

 

They would never do that to jet traffic.

 

That's not true. I was told to do a 360 only a couple miles out in the 525 last month behind a small plane. 

Maybe I'm old school but I don't see how this is that big of a deal. Annoying for sure, but that's about it. No evidence he lost separation. 

-Robert

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, whiskytango said:

This may be somewhat off-topic but it is something I would like to know, and maybe ATC folks on MS can advise.  

At my home 'drome the ATIS almost alway includes "Land and Hold Short Operations in Progress".  We have two 9,000 foot +/- long runways, so LAHSO would be easy for GA aircraft, and the airlines could use full length on the intersecting runway.   But in flying into this airport on a weekly basis for over 10 years, I have been given a LAHS clearance maybe 5 times, at most.  I have even suggested to ATC that I would be happy to accept a LAHS clearance, but they don't give it.  It seems that some of the separation issues raised in this topic could be avoided if LAHSO were used more often.  Is is more difficult for ATC to coordinate LAHSO? 

Depends on the airport and the operator. Intersecting runways like KSAV require conflict prediction software for regular use. If they don't, and I don't think KSAV does, the parameters widen out so much that LAHSO is confined to some pretty narrow circumstances that really don't occur that often.

 

[Shadrach]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:29 AM, skydvrboy said:

A little more background details that will answer a few questions that have come up.  Conditions were night VFR.  There was a solid overcast, but it was at 10,000 with excellent visibility below.  I was flying solo with low fuel, so I was very light.  My fuel was low enough that it was on my mind, but not low enough I was worried about it.  I knew I had about 8 gallons on board for the first landing attempt.  This is a really busy airport M-F 8:00-5:00 with very little traffic evenings and weekends.  Being late on a Saturday night, no other planes came in during the 1/2 hour before I left the airport.

I thought about saying unable and landing anyway.  My struggle with this is that a go around is a normal procedure that any pilot should be able to execute, yet it obviously adds additional risk as evidenced by multiple accident reports.  My mind immediately flashed back to the ASI Accident Case Study of the Cirrus at Houston Hobby.  She had the same beginning to the chain of events that led to her going around 2 more times and eventually stalling and spinning into a parking lot.  Her primary failure was retracting her flaps with inadequate airspeed, so I was ultra focused on keeping my speed up throughout the go around and making a good second approach.

I do know the tower supervisor, so I may call him tomorrow and discuss the situation, apologize for loosing my cool, find out when the controller works next, and arrange to send him a pizza.

I'll tell one more "short" story that is more apropos to your situation.   NYE 2014 I took my wife to Philly for the holiday.  I was told to "keep my speed up" shortly after being vectored onto about 2 mile final for 35 at Philadelphia International Airport. I'm descending at ~160KIAS and I maintain that speed on final.  As I cross the bank of the Delaware River I see a SW737 off to my right on the approach for 27R getting bigger and bigger. At halfway across the river on about a .5 mile final I can see this is not going as tower had planned it (likely due to my left-right cross wind and the 737s headwind which was high teens gusting into the 20s).   Tower says "Mooney 39Q, this is not going to work...can you make this a left base for 27L?"  Now I could have tensed up, gotten pissed because of his error and requested vectors to a different runway. However, the winds were more favorable to 27.  The threshold of 27 was about a half mile off my current track and the 737 certainly wasn't going around. I replied "Affirmative on 27L for 39Q, always happy to help".   He thanked me and cleared me to land 27L.   I made the first reverse high speed turn off. I received another genuine yet unnecessary thank you before being handed to ground.  I was then given unsolicited progressive instructions all the way to Atlantic with every transmission ending in sir and a final thanks before transitioning to the non-movement area.   

The moral of the story is that no matter who pooched the situation, the best course of action is almost always to calmly help resolve it while being as gracious as possible. You'll find more often than not you get treated like a pro.  While this event was rewarding for me as a pilot, I've been flying into Bravo and Charlie airspace for decades.  The real benefit was that my wife of one year was in the right seat listening to ATC professionals at a major International Airport acting graciously towards her husband.  I would say that event had a huge impact on her comfort level in the airplane. If I had stressed over it and gotten bent out of shape she would have a different view of me.

Also got a cool pic of the sunset on the Delaware river as we turned final...

 

[MooneyMitch]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I'll tell one more "short" story that is more apropos to your situation.   NYE 2014 I took my wife to Philly for the holiday.  I was told to "keep my speed up" shortly after being vectored onto about 2 mile final for 35 at Philadelphia International Airport. I'm descending at ~160KIAS and I maintain that speed on final.  As I cross the bank of the Delaware River I see a SW737 off to my right on the approach for 27R getting bigger and bigger. At halfway across the river on about a .5 mile final I can see this is not going as tower had planned it (likely due to my left-right cross wind and the 737s headwind which was high teens gusting into the 20s).   Tower says "Mooney 39Q, this is not going to work...can you make this a left base for 27L?"  Now I could have tensed up, gotten pissed because of his error and requested vectors to a different runway. However, the winds were more favorable to 27.  The threshold of 27 was about a half mile off my current track and the 737 certainly wasn't going around. I replied "Affirmative on 27L for 39Q, always happy to help".   He thanked me and cleared me to land 27L.   I made the first reverse high speed turn off. I received another genuine yet unnecessary thank you before being handed to ground.  I was then given unsolicited progressive instructions all the way to Atlantic with every transmission ending in sir and a final thanks before transitioning to the non-movement area.   

The moral of the story is that no matter who pooched the situation, the best course of action is almost always to calmly help resolve it while being as gracious as possible. You'll find more often than not you get treated like a pro.  While this event was rewarding for me as a pilot, I've been flying into Bravo and Charlie airspace for decades.  The real benefit was that my wife of one year was in the right seat listening to ATC professionals at a major International Airport acting graciously towards her husband.  I would say that event had a huge impact on her comfort level in the airplane. If I had stressed over it and gotten bent out of shape she would have a different view of me.

Also got a cool pic of the sunset on the Delaware river as we turned final...

 

Perfect!! 

[kerry]

I wouldn't have had a problem if the controller asked me to do a go around in your situation.  I would practice more pattern work so your more comfortable if the situation arises again.  As a courtesy you could have asked the controller if you needed to go around prior to landing with traffic so close behind.

[ilovecornfields]

@Shadrach, great story! There’s nothing like unsolicited compliments from the controllers to boost your spouse’s opinion of your flying. I know some people just aren’t into flying and my wife has no desire to be a pilot, but she likes going places and feels “safe and comfortable” when she flies with me. I think the professional interactions I have with the controllers help with this.

I sometimes wonder when people have family members that refuse to fly with them if some of it may have been due to the first impressions they got while flying and actions which may not have made them feel “safe and comfortable.”

Act like a professional...get treated like one. What a concept!

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, ilovecornfields said:

@Shadrach, great story! There’s nothing like unsolicited compliments from the controllers to boost your spouse’s opinion of your flying. I know some people just aren’t into flying and my wife has no desire to be a pilot, but she likes going places and feels “safe and comfortable” when she flies with me. I think the professional interactions I have with the controllers help with this.

I sometimes wonder when people have family members that refuse to fly with them if some of it may have been due to the first impressions they got while flying and actions which may not have made them feel “safe and comfortable.”

Act like a professional...get treated like one. What a concept!

I know many spouses that will not fly with their pilot SOs.  I think it's often about a single event that sets the tone moving forward.  I encourage new pilots to use the system and get comfortable with communication in busy airspace.  No better way to sour a spouse on flying than trying to take a trip somewhere and needlessly making a fool of yourself in a stressful situation. I also tell them to challenge themselves frequently but do it solo.  No one wants to see their pilot looking uncomfortable.

[Yetti]

On the corollary going into Austin Exec you could pretty much tell that the controller was behind the tower.      There were two biz jets waiting to launch.   He kind of messed up the pattern directions for me, but when he cleared me to land, it was power off 180 on a 45 degree to the threshold, straighten up over the numbers and set it down and get off the runway so he had one less plane to deal with.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I suppose we won't know, just like we don't know why you chose "her" instead of "he."

 

I do know. Absolutely nothing whatsoever.

But as to why I chose "she" instead of "he", I'm happy to explain.  I don't know exactly when, but probably 15-20 years ago I began alternating male and female pronouns in my writing. Call it my personal version of gender neutrality. It's not even; it's whatever strikes me at the time I write it. I've never seen a pattern, like male = good or vice versa, although if I am referring to two people at the same time, I'll almost definitely use it. If it crosses my mind that I've used the generic "he" too much, I'll do the switch. Nothing more complicated than that.

You are the first one comment on it in more than a decade. The two best comments were a woman who accused me of being sexist because I happened to use "she" in describing something bad. But the best was a man on an aviation forum who figured out I must be a woman, because who else but a woman would use "she" generically. That last one got a great response from someone who knew me, "You go, girl!" was the reply.

Edited December 18, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[jlunseth]

That was great Shad, that’s the way it should be done. The more that happens, the easier it is for all of us.  When the tower hears “Mooney 123 Xray Zebra” they automatically think, hey, that guy is a pro. Then we all get treated well.  That said, I sure made my share of mistakes when I was first starting out, and every little thing seemed like a big thing at the time. Fortunately, I would have been in a Warrior or an Archer, I am sure I did not help the controllers’ opinions of Piper pilots very much. 

[eman1200]

I fly out of NASCAR international so I’m used to getting last minute reroutes, 360’s on short final etc to let the jets in. I had the bright idea of bringing the tower guys BBQ from a local joint and put my tail # of the outside of the to-go box so they know who it came from. Now I get a “please” when given a reroute or 360 on short final. Chalk up another win for the eman.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, jlunseth said:

That was great Shad, that’s the way it should be done. The more that happens, the easier it is for all of us.  When the tower hears “Mooney 123 Xray Zebra” they automatically think, hey, that guy is a pro. Then we all get treated well.  That said, I sure made my share of mistakes when I was first starting out, and every little thing seemed like a big thing at the time. Fortunately, I would have been in a Warrior or an Archer, I am sure I did not help the controllers’ opinions of Piper pilots very much. 

When I learned to fly there was really no practical way to get proficient at communicating in busy airspace other than just doing it. Even after an ernest study of phraseology I stepped in it many times (and occasionally still do). That was the 90s. Students today have a lot more online practice resources at their disposal. I still know pilots flying high performance aircraft that are uncomfortable at busy airports/airspace or with flight following. I queried a hangar neighbor as to why he routinely performs cross country flights sans flight following. He said “those guys are busy, they don’t want to deal with me”. I told him that if he was in their sector they were dealing with him but without the benefit of knowing his intentions or being able to communicate with him.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

 

 

[MikeOH]

SWEET!

That had to be only a couple hundred feet AGL (or, AWL)!!

[chrixxer]

One of my first flights on my PPL, I was taking a Warrior into McCarran. I trained on Hershey wing Cherokees. Tower had me keep "maximum speed to the numbers." I crossed the threshold at a blistering 105 kias, chopped power, and ... floated. I finally got it on the ground (at about 50 kias still indicating) maybe 100' before Whiskey (1L). Tower tells me to turn left at Whiskey. Yeah, that ain't gonna happen. (Maybe on two wheels, in KITT...) "Unable."

 

I hear the tower controller audibly sigh on frequency. "Warrior Niner Bravo Zulu, turn left Sierra, contact ground. Southwest eight seven six five, go around."

[carusoam]

summarizing some thoughts...

1) Great conversation ladies and gents...

2) When approaching to land... and things are changing... time and distance are both short...

3) ATC issues a GA... response has to be as expected or ATC starts getting busy with wondering what we are going to do next...

4) We want to start the climb in a controlled fashion... but this leaves us in the plane of a plane coming up from behind us...

5) We can’t guess what is going to happen with the plane behind us... he might cause his own problems and need to GA as well...

6) We have three humans, operating in a high stress situation, multi-Tasking at the highest levels...  

7) If I we’re to play lawyer, and debate what should be going on...  I’d be dead right...

8) Message from Dad... the only thing wrong with being dead-right... you aren’t around to enjoy it...

9) There is a chance that any one of the three players goofed up... the safest solution is to get out of there...

10) getting out there... is a safe execution of the GA, following the side-step instruction... (buys time and yields extra distance...)

 

11) Corporate jets aren’t always piloted by better pilots than Mooney pilots...  we had a Lear Jet fall out of the sky in NJ a few years ago, fumbling a simple approach with a perceived runway change... wouldn’t want to be in front of that plane...

12) when You already know what is going on... because you have good situational awareness, and memory of the situation, AND you know that your Mooney can be stopped... and you know you are on speed as expected...   the other two players can’t depend on everything working that tightly...

13) If the tower knew this was going on... as it did... he would have issued instructions much sooner...   now you know your ATC is falling behind... wouldn’t want to be on the ground, having the Jet landing long....

14) when things are happening that quickly, in a short amount of space, and the players aren’t all on the same team...   

Go around, send some BBQ, live for another day...   

Know one thing... only the cool ATC guys fly Mooneys....

Best regards,

-a-

 

[skydvrboy]

So to add a little closure to this thread, I called the tower supervisor yesterday and explained how I screwed up Saturday night by not understanding the big picture and how I bitched at the controller for 1)trying to help me out by squeezing me in and 2) keeping me safe when that didn't work out as planned.  The controller happened to be working when I called, so he had me talk directly with him. The controller was still apologizing for putting me in a bad situation and insisted that I didn't need to do anything to make amends when I offered pizza or cookies and wouldn't even tell me when he was working so I would know when to send the goodies.  So I asked to speak with the tower supervisor one more time and he provided the schedule info I needed.  Pizza will be delivered Saturday night!

I'm glad I shared this experience as I have learned a lot from this thread.  I hope others have learned a lot too.  If you thought the same way I did about my situation, please go back and read @GeeBee's explanation of why the little guy gets sent around.  It makes perfect sense once you understand the performance capabilities and limitations of both aircraft.

Unfortunately, I now feel a bit like a little kid who was pissed at mom for making me get a shot at the doctors office... who now just got a cram course in immunology.

[epsalant]

Thank you for sharing with us. We all learned.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[MooneyMitch]

5 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

So to add a little closure to this thread, I called the tower supervisor yesterday and explained how I screwed up Saturday night by not understanding the big picture and how I bitched at the controller for 1)trying to help me out by squeezing me in and 2) keeping me safe when that didn't work out as planned.  The controller happened to be working when I called, so he had me talk directly with him. The controller was still apologizing for putting me in a bad situation and insisted that I didn't need to do anything to make amends when I offered pizza or cookies and wouldn't even tell me when he was working so I would know when to send the goodies.  So I asked to speak with the tower supervisor one more time and he provided the schedule info I needed.  Pizza will be delivered Saturday night!

I'm glad I shared this experience as I have learned a lot from this thread.  I hope others have learned a lot too.  If you thought the same way I did about my situation, please go back and read @GeeBee's explanation of why the little guy gets sent around.  It makes perfect sense once you understand the performance capabilities and limitations of both aircraft.

Unfortunately, I now feel a bit like a little kid who was pissed at mom for making me get a shot at the doctors office... who now just got a cram course in immunology.

I hope you “win the day”, hands down you get my vote.   Congratulations!!