I have a number for you... advise when ready to copy

[Shiny moose]

This happens all the time, everyone in aviation  has to change a plan sometimes at the last moment, no bent metal,  nobody hurt, you get to do a real unplanned go around, good for you, some people have never experienced that.

If you would have asked for or advised a go around it would have been done without question and the tower would not have had you make a phone call to them . Enjoy your experience, laugh about it. 

[MooneyMitch]

7 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

A little more background details that will answer a few questions that have come up.  Conditions were night VFR.  There was a solid overcast, but it was at 10,000 with excellent visibility below.  I was flying solo with low fuel, so I was very light.  My fuel was low enough that it was on my mind, but not low enough I was worried about it.  I knew I had about 8 gallons on board for the first landing attempt.  This is a really busy airport M-F 8:00-5:00 with very little traffic evenings and weekends.  Being late on a Saturday night, no other planes came in during the 1/2 hour before I left the airport.

I thought about saying unable and landing anyway.  My struggle with this is that a go around is a normal procedure that any pilot should be able to execute, yet it obviously adds additional risk as evidenced by multiple accident reports.  My mind immediately flashed back to the ASI Accident Case Study of the Cirrus at Houston Hobby.  She had the same beginning to the chain of events that led to her going around 2 more times and eventually stalling and spinning into a parking lot.  Her primary failure was retracting her flaps with inadequate airspeed, so I was ultra focused on keeping my speed up throughout the go around and making a good second approach.

I do know the tower supervisor, so I may call him tomorrow and discuss the situation, apologize for loosing my cool, find out when the controller works next, and arrange to send him a pizza.

My opinion...... go see supervisor and your specific controller and offer up your stated apology and the pizza offer !  Chocolate chip cookies are a plus too !

[EricJ]

35 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Having moved to a non towered busy airport I have a new appreciation for controllers. 

Especially moving from DVT!   I am thankful for the DVT controllers every time I fly.   Still the busiest GA airport in the country, and apparently now busier (by operation count) than Phoenix Sky Harbor.

And +1 on keeping good relationships with the controllers at fields you frequent.   You don't want to be on their sh*t list, and it can be very beneficial to be on their good side.

 

[Skates97]

42 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

A little more background details that will answer a few questions that have come up.  Conditions were night VFR.  There was a solid overcast, but it was at 10,000 with excellent visibility below.  I was flying solo with low fuel, so I was very light.  My fuel was low enough that it was on my mind, but not low enough I was worried about it.  I knew I had about 8 gallons on board for the first landing attempt.  This is a really busy airport M-F 8:00-5:00 with very little traffic evenings and weekends.  Being late on a Saturday night, no other planes came in during the 1/2 hour before I left the airport.

I thought about saying unable and landing anyway.  My struggle with this is that a go around is a normal procedure that any pilot should be able to execute, yet it obviously adds additional risk as evidenced by multiple accident reports.  My mind immediately flashed back to the ASI Accident Case Study of the Cirrus at Houston Hobby.  She had the same beginning to the chain of events that led to her going around 2 more times and eventually stalling and spinning into a parking lot.  Her primary failure was retracting her flaps with inadequate airspeed, so I was ultra focused on keeping my speed up throughout the go around and making a good second approach.

I do know the tower supervisor, so I may call him tomorrow and discuss the situation, apologize for loosing my cool, find out when the controller works next, and arrange to send him a pizza.

 

34 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

My opinion...... go see supervisor and your specific controller and offer up your stated apology and the pizza offer !  Chocolate chip cookies are a plus too !

I was going to mention the same thing, see if you can bring the pizza. (And I can second the cookies suggestion) A chance to chat face to face is an opportunity for both of you to learn from each other and could likely be the start of a friendship. It wouldn't be the first time that a friendship was formed out of what started as a not so friendly situation.

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

If this is somewhere you fly regularly, I would seriously consider making a peace offering. You may be surprised how controllers can bend over backwards to make your life easier.

This. So much this. 

I've visited the tower.  The controllers recognize my voice, I recognize theirs.  They know I know what I'm doing.  They know if they give me an instruction, I'm going to do it exactly the way they intend it, and they know they don't have to babysit me.  

I fly out of DVT. The busiest class D in the US. 

I get to do all kinds of stuff that other pilots don't get to do.  I get cleared for takeoff in front of multiple other planes, because they know I won't faff around on the runway and they can fit me between touch and goes with minimum spacing.  

I've been 15 miles out, cleared to land #7, behind a certain plane, because they know if I'm not 100% confident I have the plane in sight they're talking about, I'll tell them.  

It really helps to be polite and friendly with your home base controller, they really do have a lot of leeway with what they can do.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

In this specific scenario, I'm not sure what those few additional words to explain "unable" would be.  Presumably there was plenty of runway remaining and day vfr conditions.  In our planes, a go around, even from the flare, should be no big deal.  Perceived discourtesy from the controller in giving priority to #2 jet traffic after making the OP work hard to comply with previous instructions might make him irritated, but perhaps not "unable."  And unless the controller violated the regs or gave a potentially hazardous instruction (not yet sure either is the case here), I don't know what the basis is to talk to the tower later. 

"Unable I'm landing." "Unable the go-around."

The necessity is arguable, but I'm referring to a clarification of "what," not an explanation of "why."

[Immelman]

I will add one other thought:

A go-around in a turbojet airplane is much more of a handful than in our Mooneys. Things happen in a flash, you don't do it often, its very easy to bust a flap or gear speed, or altitude. Things happen very, very quickly. You're also typically sequenced around for another try with an approach controller and your pattern is thus much larger. You chew through a lot of fuel which may be in short supply. Frankly our Mooneys, unforgiving as they are for landing compared to a Cessna or Piper single, are still easier to land than a jet because a piston aircraft is inherently more forgiving of a lousy approach setup. So doing a go-around and quick lap of the pattern is more preferable in a piston than a jet airplane.

So while it isn't particularly fair the way that it worked out for you, with the controller's spacing error (perhaps it was the approach controller's spacing error, or the jet crew's speed reduction), it probably was the right call to have you do the go around vs the jet. Somethings aren't fair that way.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Immelman

[flyboy0681]

Just my 2¢. The traffic at my drome has a lot of corporate jets and over the years I have been conditioned to listen on the approach and tower frequency of where they are in relation to me and I know intrinsically how close they will be to me when I'm on final, resulting in me adjusting my speed during the approach and knowing that I'll need to make it off the runway straightaway.

[Hank]

The last time a Tower asked me to keep my speed up and make a short approach for following jet traffic, I stayed fast until downwind, flew my normal pattern at normal speed, made a normal landing, taxiied almost a mile, parked, shutdown, got out, spoke to the lineman and was unloading luggage when the jet appeared on final . . . .

Edited December 15, 2019 by Hank

[GeeBee]

We need to remind ourselves some things here. We all want to be helpful, but the words "unable" are not the end of the world, or a source of punishment. I used to tell all my students from primary, to ATPs, when you are in the batter's box, you are batting. Swing away. Do not let the tower hurry you off a runway, square the tires or do things on the ragged edge. I've seen more guys slide off the runway(especially in winter flying) trying to comply with the tower's wishes than I care to think about. When you are cleared to land, the runway is yours. Unless you receive a LAHSO instruction use the runway you need to comfortably and safely exit. Also, don't accept a LAHSO below 1000'. Swing away batter.

[Yetti]

5 hours ago, DXB said:

In this specific scenario, I'm not sure what those few additional words to explain "unable" would be.  Presumably there was plenty of runway remaining and day vfr conditions.  In our planes, a go around, even from the flare, should be no big deal.  Perceived discourtesy from the controller in giving priority to #2 jet traffic after making the OP work hard to comply with previous instructions might make him irritated, but perhaps not "unable."  And unless the controller violated the regs or gave a potentially hazardous instruction (not yet sure either is the case here), I don't know what the basis is to talk to the tower later. 

I operate on the let's all work together to not bend metal.  That being said if I was spent and happy to be landing,   "Unable  Spacing is your issue"    If I wanted to fly some more I would execute the go around and after plane was clean and positive rate of climb, Said "Go Around".    Once I have clearance to land I am mostly focused on the plane and the ground.  Everything else gets shoved to the back ground pretty much on ignore.

[carusoam]

Hmmmm...

Batter’s box... interesting analogy...

1) Batter is in the box, looking to the coach that is stationed behind first base...

2) That coach is firing off a handful of coded hand signals that may be telling the batter what is expected of him...

3) On the way into the batters box... the batter may be prepping for the home run swing...

4) 1^st base coach requests a bunt...

5) Awesome batter lays down a bunt that dribbles up the left baseline...

6) There is so much going on.... the better your situational awareness... the more full the picture is...

7) The better you know the controllers.... The better they know you...

8) This really seems to work extremely well when you know your plane well.... and your controllers know your skills...

9) skydvrboy has an awesome, really recognizable Mooney! Controllers won’t have to remember his tail number... 

10) If assumptions are going to be made... they will only be made to the conservative side... extra spacing everywhere...

 

MS has a few controllers on board... they are always welcome to join the conversation... add some view points from how things work at the tower...

This is a great thread, covering how humans get together, to make things work better, for everyone...

Its really cool, when your ATCer, is an MSer... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Volare]

What on earth kid of jet was this? F-16? I've flown a lot of jets (none military) and can't conceive of a situation where this should have been an issue unless the jet in question was trying to do 180-200 until the outer marker.

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, Immelman said:

A go-around in a turbojet airplane is much more of a handful than in our Mooneys.

I have no doubt this may be true, but those pilots also have much more training and experience than many of us, myself for certain.  I would argue that the accident statistics show that there is a much greater danger to life and limb by sending the small GA aircraft on the go around.  Of course, that may be selection bias.  I probably read and remember more GA accident reports than reports of executive jets.  It could also be that the executive jets are rarely sent around, thus they rarely have go around accidents.

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

9) skydvrboy has an awesome, really recognizable Mooney! Controllers won’t have to remember his tail number... 

Some people pay big money for 5-color paint schemes... some of us just have a few mismatched replacement parts! 

 

2 hours ago, Volare said:

What on earth kid of jet was this? F-16?

While we do have F-16's occasionally at this airport, this was a Challenger 600 stopping for fuel on their way from Teterboro to Van Nuys.

[M20F-1968]

12 hours ago, skykrawler said:

A couple weeks ago, landing at towered home field VFR, straight in and practicing letting  George fly an approach I was cleared to  land, gear was down.  Wind at altitude was high so ground speed was slow.  Controller asked  for a right 360 to allow a citation jet  in first that was 5 miles in trail.    Back on course, cleared to land.    Short final, less than 150 feet, controller directed me to go around for another jet that approach had handed off as a visual on a left base.  Controller then requested a right side step.  So I'm cleaning and climbing thinking 'OK now I'm going opposite direction of the right downwind.'   The jet was cleared and controller said I could just do a right 360.   After 180 I can now see the Lear jet on a 1 mile short final and I'm thinking I could have been on the ground and off the runway.    Controller then cleared me to land a third time.  Now I was close and high.  Flaps out all the way descending turn....hmm doesn't seem right.   Gear horn.

They would never do that to jet traffic.

 

All the while you are being pushed around by ATC, recognize that you are being placed into a set-up situation for forgetting something, most importantly gear down or some other procedure.  Be cognizant that you are being taken outside of your routine.  While you are in the 360, feel free to ask for a delay vector to retreat and regroup if necessary to stay safe.

John Breda

[Ibra]

Just take your time for a go-around especially if the runway is long, no need for full power or even a climb, also it does not make a difference if you do it after a bounce or if ATC ask you, just put power gently and point the nose to the horizon, Mooney are super powerful and tend to go really out of trim 

Last time I was instructed by ATC to go-around (it was not that necessary as someone just exiting the runway), I took the opportunity to fly off the runway and make eye contact with the guys in the tower, it was fun and I think controllers guessed I was enjoying TopGun too much 

[larrynimmo]

Not long ago, I was flying ifr to Martin in baltimore....potomac approach ....cleared for visual approach runway 33, call tower on 121.3 and keep your speed up as you have a falcon jet that closing.  I confirmed and called tower and said as instructed by Atc, I’m coming in hot....I descended from 3,000 to 1,000 feet at 150 knots, and the tower insisted I slow up...can’t please everybody 

[tmo]

23 hours ago, carusoam said:

It would be nice to have a rear view mirror... to see how far back the big plane really is...  

Isn't that mirror called "ADS-B in" in the US? ;-)

[Mooneymite]

23 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

No "argue" required. Just one word if it's a safety issue. "Unable." Perhaps a few extra words to make it clearer. 

"Unable"?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean in the situation where a pilot has been instructed to go-around.

Unable to go around?  Really?

Instructions to go around in effect cancel landing clearance.  Are you advocating landing without clearance?

A go around is as basic a maneuver as landing an aircraft.  Pilots must be proficient at both.  The tower is not asking the pilot to do something unsafe.  If there are other (safety) reasons for rejecting the instruction to go-around, instead of saying "unable", I'd suggest declaring an emergency....otherwise, immediately go-around and save your objections for later.

[Ibra]

Unable to GA?

If I am really unable to GA, I would just land and taxi, then call later to explain it, I would ask for radio check once I exit the runway 

If you are instructed to go-around you just GA, very simple but you need to take your time and do it safely, personally, I don't like to guess what ATC have in mind nor them guessing what pilots think

Edited December 16, 2019 by Ibra

[skydvrboy]

5 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Instructions to go around in effect cancel landing clearance.  Are you advocating landing without clearance?

I'm not sure I really understand this sentence.  Just as we have to accept a clearance, wouldn't we have to accept a cancellation of that clearance?  Also, we aren't able to accept any clearance that would cause us to violate a FAR.  In my case, had a been even 1 gallon lower on fuel, accepting the go around would have caused me to violate the minimum fuel reserve requirement for night VFR flight, 45 minutes.  In that case, i believe I should have told the controller unable and if asked why... low fuel.  Besides, I don't think I would have been landing without clearance, I already had clearance to land.

I know I don't have near the experience of many (most) of the pilots on here, which is why I'm asking these questions.  However, during my relatively recent private training, my instructor talked about 5 hazardous attitudes, one of which was resignation.  One of the examples of the unsafe attitude of resignation was blindly following ATC instructions.  Of course, that also has to be balanced with the unsafe attitude of anti-authority "Don't tell me to go around!"

5 hours ago, Ibra said:

If you are instructed to go-around you just GA, very simple but you need to take your time and do it safely,

In this situation, I didn't feel I was able to take my time going around.  The urgency in the controllers voice along with the instruction to sidestep to the east made me think the jet was rather close and I needed to get out of the way NOW.

[neilpilot]

8 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

In my case, had a been even 1 gallon lower on fuel, accepting the go around would have caused me to violate the minimum fuel reserve requirement for night VFR flight, 45 minutes.

I don't think that the 45 min reserve applies to that phase of the flight.

[ilovecornfields]

14 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

I don't think that the 45 min reserve applies to that phase of the flight.

You are correct. “No person may BEGIN a flight...”

 

It sounds like this was a stressful situation. When that happens to me I usually call my favorite  CFI and schedule a flight. This is a great opportunity to learn and it would be a shame to waste it.
 

§ 91.151 Fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions.

(a) No person may begin a flight in an  airplane under  VFR conditions unless (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough fuel to fly to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal cruising speed - 

(1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes; or 

(2) At night, to fly after that for at least 45 minutes.

[kortopates]

32 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I'm not sure I really understand this sentence.  Just as we have to accept a clearance, wouldn't we have to accept a cancellation of that clearance?  Also, we aren't able to accept any clearance that would cause us to violate a FAR.  In my case, had a been even 1 gallon lower on fuel, accepting the go around would have caused me to violate the minimum fuel reserve requirement for night VFR flight, 45 minutes.  In that case, i believe I should have told the controller unable and if asked why... low fuel.  Besides, I don't think I would have been landing without clearance, I already had clearance to land.

I know I don't have near the experience of many (most) of the pilots on here, which is why I'm asking these questions.  However, during my relatively recent private training, my instructor talked about 5 hazardous attitudes, one of which was resignation.  One of the examples of the unsafe attitude of resignation was blindly following ATC instructions.  Of course, that also has to be balanced with the unsafe attitude of anti-authority "Don't tell me to go around!"

In this situation, I didn't feel I was able to take my time going around.  The urgency in the controllers voice along with the instruction to sidestep to the east made me think the jet was rather close and I needed to get out of the way NOW.

It is not out of the ordinary for a tower controller to cancel your landing clearance or even change runways on you while on final. For example, he/she could see a plane pull onto the runway that wasn't cleared at the last minute and now call for you to go around to avoid a potential tragedy.  

Nor it is unreasonable for a controller to expect you to be able to go around, doing GA's near the runway is required element of our training and the ACS. That said, only you can decide at the moment if you are able to safely go around but you truly need to have the full situational awareness of knowing that landing without a clearance, (i.e. making it an emergency for you), isn't going to provide a worse outcome than a GA. Given the expectations of your ability to fly a GA, it would also be reasonable for the FAA to want to see you get some remedial training after the event, but again, if you really couldn't pull it off, that is the last thing that you should be concerned about. After all, we see a lot of incidents with pilots that get into trouble after the controller issues them a last minute instruction, such as requesting a short approach, to get off at next exit etc etc. so don't be hero, just do your best to be a proficient pilot for when the unexpected happens. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by kortopates

[steingar]

Controller that makes me go around in the flare for jet traffic on final is going to have a little talk.  No phones needed, i'll happy pay him or her a visit in the tower.  No shouting, you can dress someone down far better with a calm voice.  

I promise you they'll never do it again.

And I really don't want to hear and of this "controller is hard job" shit.  They don't die when they fuck up.  We do.

Edited December 16, 2019 by steingar