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Mooney M20F purchase....approaching Annual


Sheriff23

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Morning,

Buying my first Mooney and I have a quick question. Annual is current and it’s maintained by an authorized MSC, but the annual is due 1 Mar 20.  
 

Is it normal to sell with an updated annual?  Should I push for the owner to complete the annual....or just use the pre buy to evaluate condition and then follow up with the annual in February?  I’ve read that most shops won’t complete a pre buy with annual.

Thanks!

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The general idea is check the three big items in pre buy.  Corrosion, Engine, Fuel tanks.  if pass.   Then turn into an annual inspection.   mechanics will do what you pay them to do.

Annuals are always approaching.   Almost on a yearly basis.

Edited by Yetti
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31 minutes ago, Sheriff23 said:
Morning,
Buying my first Mooney and I have a quick question. Annual is current and it’s maintained by an authorized MSC, but the annual is due 1 Mar 20.  
 
Is it normal to sell with an updated annual?  Should I push for the owner to complete the annual....or just use the pre buy to evaluate condition and then follow up with the annual in February?  I’ve read that most shops won’t complete a pre buy with annual.
Thanks!

Pay for the annual. There is no standard of performance for a prebuy. I found this out the hard way when a Mooney MSC performed a prebuy and missed at least $15AMU in maintenance issues. With an annual, at least there's a checklist to follow and the IA is on the hook because the aircraft is being deemed airworthy again.. Also, INSIST in photos of borescope inspections if each cylinder wall, valve etc. You may also want a disinterested third party to review these for you (Savvy Maintenance?). Or post them here...

On second thought, just hold cash in reserve and be ready to spend it on the inevitable "gotchas" (after your due diligence, of course)  I've griped a lot about my "surprises" here before but the truth is that I have enjoyed every minute of the problem solving, learning, wrenching, etc.  For me, aircraft ownership has been much more than "where can I fly today".  



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I have bought 3 airplanes.  One with a fresh service center annual.  One I looked over.  One I had a pre purchase inspection.  In the end it didn’t make any difference.  Things will pop up and it will cost you lots of money.  Welcome to ownership!
 

with the annual coming up fast I could go either way.  The couple of months could help you get an idea of what you want to do or you could do it now and hope nothing needs done.  It just seems like something always comes up that you will want to change.  

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36 minutes ago, Sheriff23 said:

Morning,

Buying my first Mooney and I have a quick question. Annual is current and it’s maintained by an authorized MSC, but the annual is due 1 Mar 20.  
 

Is it normal to sell with an updated annual?  Should I push for the owner to complete the annual....or just use the pre buy to evaluate condition and then follow up with the annual in February?  I’ve read that most shops won’t complete a pre buy with annual.

Thanks!

I sort of look at annuals like I look at property taxes on a real estate transaction - these get pro-rated over a year.

I would factor the annual into the price. There are twelve months in a year so if the annual comes up in two months a reasonable seller will work with you on pro-rating at least the flat rate basic cost of the annual. If they don't and it doesn't sell in two months they are going to have to cover the full cost anyway. But once you decide after pre-buy that you're going to buy it, then turning it into an annual makes sense, provided that you worked out the details with the shop beforehand.

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I had my Annual done at prebuy and it was only a couple of months early. It's all apart with inspection covers open, so it's a good time for it. But having a prebuy done in December, I'd think long and hard about every December for an annual. But, I've got 5 grand-kids.

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I bought my E in August, annual required in November. It had been maintained by a MSC for the last 10+ years so I elected to just check some major items. They checked compressions, overall engine condition (very clean!), and pulled a few panels for pictures with proof of no corrosion. That's all I paid for, the annual wasn't due and their price was alot higher (West coast shop). My planes going through it's annual now I'm adding an EI and the major/only issue was the exhaust needed overhauled. 

Depending on the maintenance records etc I'd say just wait till the next annual time to do the annual, that gives you time to fly some and consider what you want to upgrade or you feel needs attention. 

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2 hours ago, Sheriff23 said:

Morning,

Buying my first Mooney and I have a quick question. Annual is current and it’s maintained by an authorized MSC, but the annual is due 1 Mar 20.  
 

Is it normal to sell with an updated annual?  Should I push for the owner to complete the annual....or just use the pre buy to evaluate condition and then follow up with the annual in February?  I’ve read that most shops won’t complete a pre buy with annual.

Thanks!

Do not push the owner to complete the annual - I see no reason why an owner should be willing to do an annual early, unless you are footing the bill.  And if you are going pay for it, you might as well get it done at your shop on your terms.  Note it is quite common to convert a successful prebuy into an annual. If you decide to buy the plane based on prebuy, it often makes good economic sense to complete the annual right then, even if it is a couple of months early.  The plane will already be opened up for the prebuy, so there's little sense in paying to open it up again a couple months later.  

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2 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I have bought 3 airplanes.  One with a fresh service center annual.  One I looked over.  One I had a pre purchase inspection.  In the end it didn’t make any difference.  Things will pop up and it will cost you lots of money.  Welcome to ownership!

This!

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2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I sort of look at annuals like I look at property taxes on a real estate transaction - these get pro-rated over a year.

I would factor the annual into the price. There are twelve months in a year so if the annual comes up in two months a reasonable seller will work with you on pro-rating at least the flat rate basic cost of the annual. If they don't and it doesn't sell in two months they are going to have to cover the full cost anyway. But once you decide after pre-buy that you're going to buy it, then turning it into an annual makes sense, provided that you worked out the details with the shop beforehand.

This was the route I went. When negotiating the price it was a little higher with the annual done than without where I would be doing it a month later.

1 hour ago, WaynePierce said:

I had my Annual done at prebuy and it was only a couple of months early. It's all apart with inspection covers open, so it's a good time for it. But having a prebuy done in December, I'd think long and hard about every December for an annual. But, I've got 5 grand-kids.

This is the life I am living... and we have 5 grand-kids as well. Annual in December, which wasn't a big deal the first annual that was a breeze, but last year I decided to do a few elective things to it and it took us out of travelling during the holidays. I have been wanting to push it into the last week of December/first of January to get it signed in January and get away from the holidays but that isn't going to work with schedules for my IA and myself this year (I do  owner assist with him) so I'm doing it next week. Should still be done and able to travel these holidays. He's had the plane apart and replaced enough things on it this year that there "shouldn't" be any surprises during annual.

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Much better for the new owner to be doing the annual after purchase since only the owner has legal responsibility. You don't want the prior owner just going for the cheapest annual deferring everything possible. You want to be totally involved with the decision process and calling all the shots. If you're not the owner, things could go sour fast and we've seen that happen multiple times at Savvy.


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Edited by kortopates
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Let’s see...

It’s in annual...

It’s Your wallet...

If all goes well...

Your plane...

You decide how extensive your PPI is going to be.... there is no standard for PPIs... not even required...

You decide when/if to turn a PPI into an annual...

Much of this depends on...

  • how expensive the plane is...
  • how old and worn the plane is...
  • how much you know about planes...
  • how tolerant you are for risk...

Example...

1) really new plane is likely to not be hiding much wear... but, it costs as much as your house... a touch of corrosion in the wrong place can be fatal... not a common Mooney issue, but who wants fatal problems on expensive objects d’art in their hangar?

2) really ancient plane is likely to be hiding wear in plain sight... it only costs as much as your new car... have the PPI generate a long list of all the things you want to update over your next decade of ownership...

Negotiating with the owner... it’s up to you what is included or not... it isn’t normal to expect owners to pay for very much of anything as a standard...

PPIs are typically for ferreting out AW issues at a minimum... the plane needs to be in AW condition for me to fly it home...

Good question to ask... ‘what’s included in the sale?’

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

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It’s only my opinion, but the PPI should involve opening and looking behind EVERY inspection panel, reviewing the log books for AD compliance and that there are no expired life limited items.  Rolling it into an Annual Inspection requires doing the “servicing items” like fuel filters, the ELT servicing the battery, cleaning fuel system screens, changing the oil(filter should be inspected as part of the PPI)

Clarence

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