Advice on purchase of M20C

[ROZ]

First time posting here, I'm looking at a few airplanes at the moment and the M20C Ranger seems to be one of the top airplanes on my list. I've been wanting to own a plane for a while, but it just never really made sense before. I've been looking at something to fly to pancake breakfasts, maybe the eastern shore and ny...the occasional trip to FL. I've managed some airplanes in the past, so maintenance is something I'm looking at carefully. Based on the manual gear, flaps, most of those systems seem pretty simple...compared to the later years. Any of you who have owned a "C" model care to mention what maintenance issues are common to the type? Also, as far as operating costs...what's your typical direct operating cost a hour? I know thats a loaded question, but when you decide to go flying what are you "ball-parking" per hour? 

Thanks in advance everyone!

[gsxrpilot]

It is simple and a great first airplane to own. When I owned a C, I didn't pay any attention to the hourly costs other than fuel. And at 7 or 8 gph average, that's pretty cheap as well. So figure $35 to $50 an hour and you're probably covered.

[carusoam]

ROZ,

Find one in decent condition... PPI.

Add fuel, fly...

Common Maintenance... check oil, add a quart if needed.

Monthly, may need air in the tires... depending on tube type... get air-stop tubes...
 

Annual inspection... once each year...

 

you kind of left out where you are starting from, when you gave your destinations... 

I had a C for a decade...

It can be the beginning of a great flying part of your life...

Got a PPL? An IR?

Or just looking?

Do you enjoy working on machinery?  There are some good options with that too...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy... no IR required! 
 

Some M20Cs reach the status of forever-planes...

 

Advice... plan to be impressed...!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

19 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

It is simple and a great first airplane to own. When I owned a C, I didn't pay any attention to the hourly costs other than fuel. And at 7 or 8 gph average, that's pretty cheap as well. So figure $35 to $50 an hour and you're probably covered.

Really? 7-8 gph?  Something wrong with my C model then.    I’ve never seen that with my O-360!! 

[carusoam]

Depends on the mission, Mitch... 

1) Building hours vs. going somewhere...

2) Budget like the kids need to eat vs. spending their inheritance...

3) leaning til roughness vs. cocking the throttle plate, cutting back the extra fuel jet, adding a touch of carb heat...

4) A great musician doesn’t beat his Mooney like a rented mule....   (just giving Mitch a hard time at this point)

5) When looking for an M20C... find one that has an engine monitor with FF and totalizer...

Mine was the least fancy M20C and would get 18mpg on long cross countries... WOT, at 12,500’

Four people moving 150mph...  

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Depends on the mission, Mitch... 

1) Building hours vs. going somewhere...

2) Budget like the kids need to eat vs. spending their inheritance...

3) leaning til roughness vs. cocking the throttle plate, cutting back the extra fuel jet, adding a touch of carb heat...

4) A great musician doesn’t beat his Mooney like a rented mule....   (just giving Mitch a hard time at this point)

5) When looking for an M20C... find one that has an engine monitor with FF and totalizer...

Mine was the least fancy M20C and would get 18mpg on long cross countries... WOT, at 12,500’

Four people moving 150mph...  

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

Great airplane!  

[MooneyMitch]

I just go as fast as this little mini-Mooney will travel.

I saw 180 knots in cruise, level flight a few days ..... one hellofa tail wind.  Thought I was back in the big O !  LOL 

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, ROZ said:

First time posting here, I'm looking at a few airplanes at the moment and the M20C Ranger seems to be one of the top airplanes on my list. I've been wanting to own a plane for a while, but it just never really made sense before. I've been looking at something to fly to pancake breakfasts, maybe the eastern shore and ny...the occasional trip to FL. I've managed some airplanes in the past, so maintenance is something I'm looking at carefully. Based on the manual gear, flaps, most of those systems seem pretty simple...compared to the later years. Any of you who have owned a "C" model care to mention what maintenance issues are common to the type? Also, as far as operating costs...what's your typical direct operating cost a hour? I know thats a loaded question, but when you decide to go flying what are you "ball-parking" per hour? 

Thanks in advance everyone!

Again, the C is a terrific airplane!

As advised, do your homework...MS will help you, and discover a good one..... you’ll love it !!

 

[BKlott]

Generally speaking, the 1966 - 1967 model years are considered the best of breed. These aircraft had more extensive flush riveting in the wings, moveable cowl flaps, dorsal fins, retractable boarding steps, larger fuel capacity than the 1964 and older models. If you prefer the look of the vintage curved rear windows, try for a 1964 model which will provide you with an arm rest that was not factory installed in the 1963 and earlier models.

Areas of concern include:

1) Corrosion. Mooneys from this era are notorious for having partial and inconsistent factory corrosion proofing. Wing spar corrosion in the center section or the wheel well areas is not uncommon but is very expensive to repair. We have seen some members scrap their aircraft because of this over the past few years.

2) Fuel leaks. The resealing of leaking wing tanks is a labor intensive and potentially expensive maintenance item. Pay attention to when this was last completed as well as when the landing gear pucks were last replaced. There appears to be a relationship between worn gear pucks leading to leaking tanks. Some owners have gone to fuel cells as an option to resealing tanks.

The other factors to consider would apply to any complex aircraft that you are considering. General condition, complete log books, no damage is preferable, airframe, engine and prop time, paint, interior and glass and avionics. It is usually less expensive to purchase a plane that does not need the “big bills” (engine, avionics, paint and interior) at a higher purchase price than it is to purchase a plane that needs extensive upgrades or refurbishing to make it like you want it.

That being said, the M20C does provide some of the best cross country performance for the least amount of fuel burn (more like 10 to 10.5 gph for cruise performance) of any of the legacy complex airplanes. If you enjoy the seating configuration and flight characteristics, the Mooney can be a GREAT forever airplane. They were well designed and well built airplanes.

[Huitt3106]

I recently purchased my C model (recent as in back in August). I don’t think the market has changed very much but you’ll find there are categories of aircraft available. Some are nice and want an excessive premium ($60,000 plus for a C model that doesn’t have the most updated avionics), some are appropriately priced for how they’re equipped and flown (anywhere from $40,000 to $59,000) and some are cheaply expensive. By this I mean the purchase price is low but to get them to a dependable standard it could easily cost the purchase price if not more for maintenance. I know there are aircraft that fall outside of these pigeon holes but this is what I saw on average in my months of shopping. If the price seems to be too good to be true, it most likely is (Look back at one of my post where I flew across the country for a C model that had a mishandled PPI with leaking tanks). Also, there are some Mooneys you’ll see sit on the market for months due to pricing; this is much like an over priced house in a good housing market (there’s a reason they haven’t sold yet).

I suppose the lesson to my rambling would be to be patient/ careful in your search but be ready to pounce when the right one comes along. When I say pounce, I mean be ready to put a deposit down pending PPI/ log review when you call about the airplane. The good ones sell really fast! Know your budget and be prepared to purchase at the top of it to get all the airplane you can. You’re also buying dependability. I owe@gsxrpilot many thanks in giving advice when I bought mine.


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[Pasturepilot]

@ROZ, where are you located? I’m sure if you let us know, someone nearby would probably happily invite you for a hangar visit to let you poke around and see some of the features we’re talking about if you haven’t already. 

I find that first interactions with a design (car, plane, boat, etc) happening with a seller over your shoulder are a lot more intimidating than getting familiar in a friendly environment with no expectations.  

If Atlanta is nearby, I’ve got a 65 C model you’re welcome to try on for size.

[steingar]

When I had the Johnson bar and it’s holders lubricated it changed the nature of the beast. All in I’m at $150/hr, but that’s because I don’t fly as much as I want. What everyone else said about squawks. Mostly the same stuff as other airplanes except the steel corrosion and tank issues. Most important thing is to find a Mooney with good bones.

[Hank]

My C runs a dependable 170 mphT on 9 gph, add oil when required. I travel 7500-10,500 msl at WOT- / 2500. 

Annuals have varied from 1-7 AMU depending on what needed to be done besides the inspection. Add GPS databases, pitot static certs, etc. Hangar cost varies by location--I paid $125 i. West-by-Gawd, Virginny and $235 in Alabama; So. Cal and FL seem to get house payments for a T hangar . . . .

P.S.--Mooney went all electric on flaps and gear in 1969; before that they were individual options. Fixed step started before my 1970 model was built. "Stone simple" is a good description--electric gear all move from one motor; fixed cowl flaps; fixed step; O-360.  

Edited December 10, 2019 by Hank

[ROZ]

Thank you everyone for your input! I was surprised to see so many posts when I checked today. Really, thank you! Since it might help I'm located in Leesburg, VA (JYO). I used to fly for the airlines, but I took a job flying for a Washington, DC based company a few years ago. I finally have some time to fly a plane around for fun! I mean turbines are cool and all, but flying a little lower and seeing more of the country is definately a nice perspective. 

I've been exploring a few options; having something I could jump in and fly around Virginia, perhaps the occasional trip down to Jacksonville, FL seems to be all I'm really looking for at the moment. So I'm planning on around 100 hours a year. In addition to that, my brother has expressed an interest in learning to fly. I thought about finding a 152/172 that I could teach him in (I'm also a CFI). Based on all that I was looking at a C172, but when I learned that the M20 has the same engine I was intrigued. Seems your per mile costs is much lower and while not really a trainer, I could still instruct in it from time to time. 

What kills me is that I just rented out a few hangars to some clients, so for now the plane is going to have to sit outside (hangars are a hot commodity in this area)...under a nice cover. Until I can free some space up I'm stuck with a tie-down. I'm cringing as I write that.

Seems like what I've read thus far, I need to look for corrosion around the windows and wings spar, as well as the condition of the fuel tanks. I'm going to take my time looking for a mid-60's airplane around the 55-65k range? Is that a reasonable expectation? 

-Ryan

 

[ROZ]

7 hours ago, Pasturepilot said:

@ROZ, where are you located? I’m sure if you let us know, someone nearby would probably happily invite you for a hangar visit to let you poke around and see some of the features we’re talking about if you haven’t already. 

I find that first interactions with a design (car, plane, boat, etc) happening with a seller over your shoulder are a lot more intimidating than getting familiar in a friendly environment with no expectations.  

If Atlanta is nearby, I’ve got a 65 C model you’re welcome to try on for size.

I have a cousin who lives in Atlanta, holiday season is a bit busier with work and family but I might take you up on that when things get a little quieter. 

 

7 hours ago, Huitt3106 said:

I recently purchased my C model (recent as in back in August). I don’t think the market has changed very much but you’ll find there are categories of aircraft available. Some are nice and want an excessive premium ($60,000 plus for a C model that doesn’t have the most updated avionics), some are appropriately priced for how they’re equipped and flown (anywhere from $40,000 to $59,000) and some are cheaply expensive. By this I mean the purchase price is low but to get them to a dependable standard it could easily cost the purchase price if not more for maintenance. I know there are aircraft that fall outside of these pigeon holes but this is what I saw on average in my months of shopping. If the price seems to be too good to be true, it most likely is (Look back at one of my post where I flew across the country for a C model that had a mishandled PPI with leaking tanks). Also, there are some Mooneys you’ll see sit on the market for months due to pricing; this is much like an over priced house in a good housing market (there’s a reason they haven’t sold yet).

I suppose the lesson to my rambling would be to be patient/ careful in your search but be ready to pounce when the right one comes along. When I say pounce, I mean be ready to put a deposit down pending PPI/ log review when you call about the airplane. The good ones sell really fast! Know your budget and be prepared to purchase at the top of it to get all the airplane you can. You’re also buying dependability. I owe@gsxrpilot many thanks in giving advice when I bought mine.


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Did you find that searches on the Mooney club website or through other forums helped to find the plane? I've been reading a few people suggest to purchase from within the "communities"? 

[MooneyMitch]

27 minutes ago, Hank said:

My C runs a dependable 170 mphT on 9 gph, add oil when required. I travel 7500-10,500 msl at WOT- / 2500. 

Annuals have varied from 1-7 AMU depending on what needed to be done besides the inspection. Add GPS databases, pitot static certs, etc. Hangar cost varies by location--I paid $125 i. West-by-Gawd, Virginny and $235 in Alabama; So. Cal and FL seem to get house payments for a T hangar . . . .

P.S.--Mooney went all electric on flaps and gear in 1969; before that they were individual options. Fixed step started before my 1970 model was built. "Stone simple" is a good description--electric gear all move from one motor; fixed cowl flaps; fixed step; O-360.  

Yep....... something definitely wrong with my little mini-Mooney!!

170 mph 9 gph ? Not my little old ship.  

I guess they must have gotten faster with the newer  C models.

I’m still happy with it though! 

[ROZ]

7 hours ago, Pasturepilot said:

@ROZ, where are you located? I’m sure if you let us know, someone nearby would probably happily invite you for a hangar visit to let you poke around and see some of the features we’re talking about if you haven’t already. 

I find that first interactions with a design (car, plane, boat, etc) happening with a seller over your shoulder are a lot more intimidating than getting familiar in a friendly environment with no expectations.  

If Atlanta is nearby, I’ve got a 65 C model you’re welcome to try on for size.

I do have some family in Atlanta. My uncle was offering to fly me around to find something...so I might be taking him and you up on that:)

[J0nathan225]

I wouldn't limit yourself to just the C. Search C-F's and prioritize what equipment, hours, history, and of course price to find the best one for sale. 

I'm partial to E's over C's for the IO, but that's really a personal preference. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by J0nathan225

[Huitt3106]

Thank you everyone for your input! I was surprised to see so many posts when I checked today. Really, thank you! Since it might help I'm located in Leesburg, VA (JYO). I used to fly for the airlines, but I took a job flying for a Washington, DC based company a few years ago. I finally have some time to fly a plane around for fun! I mean turbines are cool and all, but flying a little lower and seeing more of the country is definately a nice perspective. 
I've been exploring a few options; having something I could jump in and fly around Virginia, perhaps the occasional trip down to Jacksonville, FL seems to be all I'm really looking for at the moment. So I'm planning on around 100 hours a year. In addition to that, my brother has expressed an interest in learning to fly. I thought about finding a 152/172 that I could teach him in (I'm also a CFI). Based on all that I was looking at a C172, but when I learned that the M20 has the same engine I was intrigued. Seems your per mile costs is much lower and while not really a trainer, I could still instruct in it from time to time. 
What kills me is that I just rented out a few hangars to some clients, so for now the plane is going to have to sit outside (hangars are a hot commodity in this area)...under a nice cover. Until I can free some space up I'm stuck with a tie-down. I'm cringing as I write that.
Seems like what I've read thus far, I need to look for corrosion around the windows and wings spar, as well as the condition of the fuel tanks. I'm going to take my time looking for a mid-60's airplane around the 55-65k range? Is that a reasonable expectation? 
-Ryan
 

I live not too far from you when it comes to Mooney distances. I’m hangared at KROA but do occasionally fly in to Manassas to visit family. If you’re ever close I’d be happy to take you up. I think someone mentioned it but don’t rule out anything from C to F model. If you can afford it, a nice E model would be great if you don’t need the rear seat legroom. I think the mid 50s you can get a really nice C (similar to mine) and mid 60s you should be able to get a quality E. Try to get as updated avionics as possible, that’s the biggest expense outside of engine time. It goes up from there of course.


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[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

My C runs a dependable 170 mphT on 9 gph, add oil when required. I travel 7500-10,500 msl at WOT- / 2500. 

Annuals have varied from 1-7 AMU depending on what needed to be done besides the inspection. Add GPS databases, pitot static certs, etc. Hangar cost varies by location--I paid $125 i. West-by-Gawd, Virginny and $235 in Alabama; So. Cal and FL seem to get house payments for a T hangar . . . .

P.S.--Mooney went all electric on flaps and gear in 1969; before that they were individual options. Fixed step started before my 1970 model was built. "Stone simple" is a good description--electric gear all move from one motor; fixed cowl flaps; fixed step; O-360.  

 

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Yep....... something definitely wrong with my little mini-Mooney!!

170 mph 9 gph ? Not my little old ship.  

I guess they must have gotten faster with the newer  C models.

I’m still happy with it though! 

I see between 160-165 mph on about 9.5 gph depending on the outside air temp. I plan for 160 mph and if I get there a few minutes sooner I'm happy.

[Atalla]

I'm based out of EZF near Fredericksburg.  Will be beginning prep for annual but you are more than welcome to come by and take a look/seat.  Any other time I would be making an excuse to go to JYO and visit a friend who opened a new bar/restaurant in Leesburg - Tarbenders (shameless advertising).

[GLJA]

I've charted everything since my purchase. 
Hangar fees, Insurance, upgrades, fuel, training, maintenance, Annuals..... 

As of now (96.1 flight hours, based on Tach time), Here's my numbers for an F:
Maintenance + Fuel = 167.13 per hour (Note: Fuel servo replaced, fuel pump overhaul, 10 year prop overhaul, and new starter included here ~$7200)

Fixed costs + fuel = 153.66 per hour ( I pay 250 a month for hangar, and roughly $5.50 per gallon... welcome to Canada, here, let me turn around and grab my ankles)
Maintenance + fuel + Fixed = 270.72 per hour. 

Obviously, the more I fly, the lower the fixed and maintenance goes. I don't expect the maintenance to go higher, other than an annual, EDM900 install and an IFR GPS later on. 

Take these numbers for what they're worth.... and don't tell my wife.

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

 

I see between 160-165 mph on about 9.5 gph depending on the outside air temp. I plan for 160 mph and if I get there a few minutes sooner I'm happy.

Ah ha!  Maybe I’ll try retracting the gear and the step and see if I can achieve better speed.   

[DXB]

5 hours ago, ROZ said:

Seems like what I've read thus far, I need to look for corrosion around the windows and wings spar, as well as the condition of the fuel tanks. I'm going to take my time looking for a mid-60's airplane around the 55-65k range? Is that a reasonable expectation? 

-Ryan

Ryan - The biggest transition in C model design by far actually happened in 1969, when they shifted from manual landing gear and hydraulic flaps to electric for both. The flush rivets went away for a while starting in '69. The full-length rudder from the F model was also incorporated into the C in '69.  Vne and Vso went up considerably in '69, albeit without any structural change to justify.  Notably Vfe went up by 20mph in 1968 and was accompanied by a structural change. Some potentially less desirable changes added in '68 include fixed step and fixed cowl flaps.  The loss of the dorsal fin in '68 has no speed penalty and makes the profile look sharper in my biased '68 owner opinion.

The J-bar has a lot of passionate devotees (including me) and saves a bit of maintenance cost vs. electric gear, but it does takes some extra practice to operate smoothly at first, and the manual gear just doesn't float everyone's boat.  There was a guy here recently who had a bad rotator cuff injury and so had to give up his plane because of the J bar.  I actually wouldn't suggest shying away from any particular model year of the C during your search, except perhaps based on personal preference of landing gear (i.e. pre vs post 1969).

A prebuy inspect should start with opening up the wings to inspect the wing spar meticulously in the hands of a Mooney expert who knows what to look far. Step 2 is pulling interior panels to inspect the steel roll cage. Corrosion problems in these areas are deal killers, so no need to examine anything else if they are found. Tank leaks are very common and aren't deal killers necessarily but warrant significant price allowances along with a process of figuring out patching vs. complete strip and reseal vs bladder install.  Solid airframe and engine are the priority, and then one can hope for nice avionics, which saves a lot of money over installing yourself.  Also it's nice to have some of the more expensive mods already installed for the same reason, particularly the 201 windshield.  Paint and interior probably should be last on this list of priorities.

Most C models will cruise in the 140-150kt range at ~7000-9000ft, 2500rpm, WOT, leaned to ~9-9.5gph; exactly how fast can depend on mods, rigging, lack of engine mount sag, and a variety of other factors. There a few superb ones that go a bit faster than 150kt under these conditions - I'm hoping to get there but haven't succeeded yet. I have a solid 145-148kt cruising plane at ~9gph, and 150kt is easily attained if I want to burn 10.5gph at 75% power at 6000ft.  

As far as operating expenses,  if you want to fly 120 hrs/year, don't be surprised if you spend 12,000-20,000 per year all in, including engine overhaul reserve. That's only about 20% more than flying a crappy 172 or Cherokee, and it is the cheapest to operate among the Mooneys.  Of course upgrades are addictive (ask me how I know), so it can certainly get more expensive than that.  

BTW if you're ever around Philly I'm happy to show you my plane at KPNE.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

As far as operating expenses,  if you want to fly 120 hrs/year, don't be surprised if you spend 12,000-20,000 per year all in, including engine overhaul reserve. That's only about 20% more than flying a crappy 172 or Cherokee, and it is the cheapest to operate among the Mooneys.  Of course upgrades are addictive (ask me how I know), so it can certainly get more expensive than that.

Quick note on Mooney efficiency here:  the P.O. of my C model used to travel WV --> Myrtle Beach with friends in a nice 172. He would take off last, pass them enroute (swving 25-30% of their flight time, more into headwinds), and burned 10% less fuel . . .