Brian E.

Perspective needed: WAAS only GPS Navigator or Nav with legacy NAVAIDS

Recommended Posts

The widespread GPS outages in Florida for example this weekend. I think that’s still proof that we need radio nav in the airplane still. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

I am in the middle of an interesting experience where my 430 is out of service, looks like the nav data card. So I am flying around old style.  The barrier for me is long trips IFR, the old style nav is just too complicated, have to zig zag and take airways. I want my GPS back!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would suggest any new money should be spent on new technology. It will defray the future cost and you get the benefit now. 

Look forward. 

Best solution today is to replace the aged Garmin 430 with a new Avidyne IFD440. 

If your 430 is a (W), then it is a no install cost slide in replacement. All you need is paperwork. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the cheap(ish) and space constrained front, we currently have the same dual KX155 feeding dual indicators, one with glideslope. We have an original KT76A transponder and need an ADSB solution. Our current plan is to replace (spatially) the KT76A with a GNX 375 (digital transponder, WAAS GPS, ADSB) and feed it to a switchable KI209A shared with Nav1, keeping both KX155's.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/18/2020 at 6:48 AM, jetdriven said:

The widespread GPS outages in Florida for example this weekend. I think that’s still proof that we need radio nav in the airplane still. 

Agree.
This is great: Tax dollars fund NAVSTAR for the military. Then civilians start using it. Then they turn off SA and WAAS gets developed. Then the FAA builds RNAV approaches using it and bases Next Gen ATC system on it and saves a lot of money decommissioning old navaids. But... The military still owns the GPS system and can bugger it up whenever they want. 

Think it’s just a navigation issue? Read the link I posted in the GPS outages thread where there was at least one documented loss of control when the interference screwed with the GPS-aided AHRS in a business jet and shut down the yaw damper.

Skip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/10/2019 at 2:22 PM, Brian E. said:

Thanks for all the replies.  I'm really trying to get away from all of the legacy gear and clean up the panel and not have to fix things twice.  I see more GPS approaches at the places that I fly than VORs and more GPS/VOR than ILS ten fold.  This leads me to question the need to invest in a secondary and tertiary navigation means.

I used to have LOC and RNAV approach to come home to at OWD near Boston.  If the #1 died I was reassured that my #2 could tune into the LOC or I could do an ILS at BOS if needed.  An iPad isn’t going to cut it for me.  I want to be able to do a precision approach as plan B.  When my KX170B was on its last leg that drove my decision to go with a 255 - I have the ability to do that precision approach even though all these VORs are going out of service. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sound advice, Brad. A separate physical box using VHF nav. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was flight training in Florida over the weekend flew from Wilmington De to Punta Gorda Friday and Home Monday, Flew approximately 20:hours, I had loss of gps signal occasionally on the iPad only for a few hours twice, no loss on the GIA63W’s, the iPad depicted no towers. I knew of the notam prior to departure. Trying to get for nav proficient again. Also my navigator wouldn’t depict the RNAV19 into Sebring, any others have same issue 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good thing my trusty 660 portable can tune GLONAS comrades. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bradp said:

Good thing my trusty 660 portable can tune GLONAS comrades. 

Many tablets will as well, and the $20 GPS receiver plugged into my Stratux also receives GLONASS, Beidou, Galileo, etc.   The likelihood of them all being down is pretty low, and if they were there may not be a place to land, anyway.  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, EricJ said:

Many tablets will as well, and the $20 GPS receiver plugged into my Stratux also receives GLONASS, Beidou, Galileo, etc.   The likelihood of them all being down is pretty low, and if they were there may not be a place to land, anyway.  ;)

I wonder. When the military conducts jamming, do the just jam ours, or do the jam everything? In a war, I’m pretty sure it would be the latter. Anyone flown around in an area with a GPS outage that affected the panel mount avionics but not the Sratus or iPad or other multi-GNSS device? 
Skip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I'd take a few moments and update you on the outcome of this thread.  My initial intentions were to do about a 20 AMU project consisting of a PAR 200B, a Garmin VHF radio (GTR 225), MD-93 and a GNX-375.  You'll note that I failed to include a CDI as part of my planning.  That led me to look at CDI prices which weren't too far from a G5 price that would serve as a CDI too.  Well you wee one G5 isn't too far from 2 G5s and I could get rid  of the DG too.  Then I saw that 2 G5s were not too far from the price of a G3X touch.  Anyway, you see how this goes.  Let me tell you how it ended...

 

I installed a G3X touch with G5 back-up, remote audio panel (GMA-245), two remote radios (GTR-20), Garmin USB, a GNX-375, an AOA sensor and a couple of new VHF antennas. This will set the stage for the GFC500 install and a GAD something or another interface for a gear warning as well.  You'll also note a nicely done powder coated panel.  No regrets yet on not having a ground based back-up IFR capability.  We'll chat more as I approach adding the AP.  I'm contemplating adding 201 yokes to permit PTT, trim and AP disconnect on the yoke.  That's another discussion for another day. 

Finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the work was done by the team at Palmetto Avionics (KGRD) in Greenwood, SC.  I worked with Amanda, Russ and Evan who was the mastermind/primary architect/installation expert and coached down the path of the remote audio panel and radios.  Needless to say I'll be back...

Meanwhile enjoy the a few pics of the before and after below.

 

Slide1.JPG

N5569Q new panel-on.JPG

  • Like 5
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome, Brian!

From fully packed panel...

To Thoroughly Modern Mooney!  :)

Great pics!

Best regards,

-a-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeez, you’ve got room for a 20” lcd with Netflix on the copilot side!  Awesome!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thought I'd take a few moments and update you on the outcome of this thread.  My initial intentions were to do about a 20 AMU project consisting of a PAR 200B, a Garmin VHF radio (GTR 225), MD-93 and a GNX-375.  You'll note that I failed to include a CDI as part of my planning.  That led me to look at CDI prices which weren't too far from a G5 price that would serve as a CDI too.  Well you wee one G5 isn't too far from 2 G5s and I could get rid  of the DG too.  Then I saw that 2 G5s were not too far from the price of a G3X touch.  Anyway, you see how this goes.  Let me tell you how it ended...
 
I installed a G3X touch with G5 back-up, remote audio panel (GMA-245), two remote radios (GTR-20), Garmin USB, a GNX-375, an AOA sensor and a couple of new VHF antennas. This will set the stage for the GFC500 install and a GAD something or another interface for a gear warning as well.  You'll also note a nicely done powder coated panel.  No regrets yet on not having a ground based back-up IFR capability.  We'll chat more as I approach adding the AP.  I'm contemplating adding 201 yokes to permit PTT, trim and AP disconnect on the yoke.  That's another discussion for another day. 
Finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the work was done by the team at Palmetto Avionics (KGRD) in Greenwood, SC.  I worked with Amanda, Russ and Evan who was the mastermind/primary architect/installation expert and coached down the path of the remote audio panel and radios.  Needless to say I'll be back...
Meanwhile enjoy the a few pics of the before and after below.
 
Slide1.thumb.JPG.c683afbafd201946b93c84ea5cd69529.JPG
738862429_N5569Qnewpanel-on.thumb.JPG.07413f78ee1b8adeb1ed3ba3c8939f7f.JPG

Hey Brian!

Love the look of your new and improved panel. I'm looking at doing something very similar in the near future. I just had a few questions if you don't mind answering.

1. Where did you get/construct the powder coated panel? I love the clean and new look and want to replicate that.

2. How much did the entire upgrade cost you with labor included?

3. Were you satisfied with the company that installed and did it and how long did it take?

4. I noticed that you went with the GNX375 which does not have nav/com. From my understanding...that is something that u need in order to be IFR certified?? That's why I was looking at gtn 750 or 650 but if there an alternate way to do that with purchasing a gps navigator I would love to know. Please educate me if I'm wrong here.

Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. The panel was done as part of the install.  I really should take a closer picture of the texture as it's not glossy like some powder coat finishes.  I was told it was done by a company on the airport.  A quick google search shows that the company may be Monti.

2.  Ohhh my.  I haven't added up the entire cost...I started with a $20K budget and probably had an estimate for ~$30k and likely spent over $35k...  Did I mention that all the old antennas are removed including the ILS, that I have 2 new COM antennas and new RG400 cabling through out.  Yup...it all made sense to take care of while the plane was apart.

3.  Yes, I am satisfied so far.  Great documentation, great support, like most they are busy.  They were very easy to get into and schedule and actually called back.

4.  I too was looking at a NAV/COM setup and I specifically wanted an Avidyne IFD 540.  Lust got in the way and I dove right into this solution.  What allowed me and you to walk away from the ground based NAVAIDs is WAAS.  As you recall a non-WAAS GPS you could file based on a GPS−based IAP at either the destination or the alternate airport, but not at both locations.  For a WAAS based system you can using any approach at your primary location but can only go to LNAV or circling minimums at your alternate.  Aim sections 1-1-17 and 1-1-18 are good references for this discussion.

Best!

  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Brian E. said:

1. The panel was done as part of the install.  I really should take a closer picture of the texture as it's not glossy like some powder coat finishes.  I was told it was done by a company on the airport.  A quick google search shows that the company may be Monti.

2.  Ohhh my.  I haven't added up the entire cost...I started with a $20K budget and probably had an estimate for ~$30k and likely spent over $35k...  Did I mention that all the old antennas are removed including the ILS, that I have 2 new COM antennas and new RG400 cabling through out.  Yup...it all made sense to take care of while the plane was apart.

3.  Yes, I am satisfied so far.  Great documentation, great support, like most they are busy.  They were very easy to get into and schedule and actually called back.

4.  I too was looking at a NAV/COM setup and I specifically wanted an Avidyne IFD 540.  Lust got in the way and I dove right into this solution.  What allowed me and you to walk away from the ground based NAVAIDs is WAAS.  As you recall a non-WAAS GPS you could file based on a GPS−based IAP at either the destination or the alternate airport, but not at both locations.  For a WAAS based system you can using any approach at your primary location but can only go to LNAV or circling minimums at your alternate.  Aim sections 1-1-17 and 1-1-18 are good references for this discussion.

Best!

  

 

Brain,

Thanks for all that information. Any additional pictures you post would greatly be appreciated! I’m glad that you are satisfied so far and I hope it all works well for you. In regards to the NAV/COM situation...I guess you learn something new each day. I went digging for information based on the pages you said to read and here are some screenshots I took of the FAR AIM. Obviously this is my first time hearing this so I’m trying to make sense of all of it. Someone could go the GPS 175 (if ADSB is not needed) + G3X Touch and have all the instruments they need to shoot GPS approaches. I guess the only thing 2 COMS does is provide redundancy and ease of use, but as far as my understanding goes you don’t need the NAV radios if you have GPS WAAS. 

CA31AA9D-C72B-4429-9A19-BC506A764643.jpeg

A1987EC9-F8EE-4B28-877C-20C76CC6CD5F.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Tahir KYou will read many who will not and prefer not to fly IFR with only GPS based systems.  You'll see those positions highlighted in this thread and many others on MS and other message boards as well.  This is due to redundancy and system availability issues and a myriad of other reasons.  For me this is an "IFR lite" to break through modest cloud layers to and from cruising altitude not to fly hours on end in IMC.  You'll have to make the value and safety proposition evaluation for yourself.  Good luck! 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tahir....
 

See if you are understanding this point...


While selecting your primary and back up systems...

You really want to think in simple terms...

1) I am above the clouds... and the clouds go really close to the ground...

2) To live... I want to land this plane before it runs out of fuel...

3) On the day things go really badly... the clouds will be spread around for hundreds of miles... plenty of opportunity to run out of fuel...

4) Something ruins your GPS reception... a simple onboard noise emitter has done this to Big G GPSi.... essentially blocking the GPS signal...

Or any single failure, like power to the radio, or the radio itself goes TU...
5) So... without a WAAS Signal, the only way to navigate to the ground with low risk is to follow some electronic signal like an ILS...

6) Otherwise, you will be planning to not fly in the areas where the vertical guidance is not a requirement...

7) Many boxes are dual purpose... WAAS and ILS for vertical guidance....

Make sure you have two ways to get to the ground... safely.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tahir....
 
See if you are understanding this point...

While selecting your primary and back up systems...
You really want to think in simple terms...
1) I am above the clouds... and the clouds go really close to the ground...
2) To live... I want to land this plane before it runs out of fuel...
3) On the day things go really badly... the clouds will be spread around for hundreds of miles... plenty of opportunity to run out of fuel...
4) Something ruins your GPS reception... a simple onboard noise emitter has done this to Big G GPSi.... essentially blocking the GPS signal...
Or any single failure, like power to the radio, or the radio itself goes TU...
5) So... without a WAAS Signal, the only way to navigate to the ground with low risk is to follow some electronic signal like an ILS...
6) Otherwise, you will be planning to not fly in the areas where the vertical guidance is not a requirement...
7) Many boxes are dual purpose... WAAS and ILS for vertical guidance....
Make sure you have two ways to get to the ground... safely.
PP thoughts only, not a CFI...
Best regards,
-a-

Your post really put some things into perspective. As someone that trained on the G1000 suite...I will be the first to admit I was definitely handed everything to me. Creating my own IFR panel definitely has it's learning curve and I appreciate everyone's willingness to teach and patience in helping me piece things together.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.