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11 minutes ago, thinwing said:

Six mile lake at Elmendorf...floats on ,floats off ,skis on,skis off wheels on...etc

We lived 2 blocks off of Sand Lake. Remember landing on the ice one time and walking home.

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5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

But I really feel like the underwriters used to consider all pre-K's as the same thing. I know several people who got insured in an F model with no dual required with 0 time in an F but they had time in a J or C. That was some years ago so I feel something change.

-Robert 

Well, that was still true 2 years ago.  I had a bunch of hours renting a M20B...bought my "F"  with 0 "F" time and didn't need any checkout or solo time from Global.  Picked it up from the the pre-buy mechanic after the deal closed and flew it home.

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One of the really weird Money saving techniques available...

Which MikeOH has covered perfectly....

Get some training in a Mooney before you own your own Mooney....

Having a bunch of hours in type...drops about 1amu off the cost of insurance...

In a similar way as the insurance cost drops after your first year of ownership...

The next drop of any size comes with the IR...

And a few mucks can be found after you have participated in a weekend event such as a MAPA Training... possibly something value attending the Mooney Summit as well...

PP thoughts only, not an insurance guru...

Best regards,

-a-

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8 hours ago, Hank said:

I strongly disagree with both of these. Most any pilot willing to learn can safely fly a Mooney. I learned to fly mine safely beginning five weeks after my PPL checkride, with 52 whole hours in my logbook (all in two particular 172s). There were trees on both ends of the 3000' field, resulting in a displaced threshold at one end and a non-standard glideslope at the other end that included adding power to level off until clear of the trees . . . . There was a very active flight school there.

 

8 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I'm with you Hank. I heard similar things from the owner of the flight school I was taking my PPL from. "Don't buy a Mooney right away, get more experience, buy something slower and then fly a Mooney after a few years..." Boy am I glad I didn't listen to him.

Umm, I don't want to speak for @Herlihy Brother, but I read into his post some degree of tongue-in-cheek or ad absurdum intention...

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1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

I’ll add, 

today I took a local instructor up in my Mooney. After about an hour and 3 landings he said, this is not an airplane for initial training. 
 

take that as you will. 

You have a wise, competent pilot, keep him!   Chief Justice of the Supreme court Warren Burger Said that 90% of Trial Lawyers are incompetent....My friends and I have found a similar parallel in other professions.  I think the recent Alaskan Airlines Dutch Harbor fatality, among others, indicates that Pilots are not exempt from this rule. Strive to be in the 10% of competent pilots, and decision makers, and do not fly a mooney until you have achieved a level of competence that this marvelous aircraft requires. 

Heck, Even the insurance companies Universally are telling us, through their premiums, that our aircraft are not as safe as cessnas and pipers, and that low time, non ifr rated pilots are not equal to (safe as) high time, ifr rated pilots.  These are indisputable facts. Don't argue with me, argue with the data, the actuaries, the facts....  Why do pilots think they can beat the odds? god complex?  To maximize your happiness as a Ga Pilot do as I did and do it something like this:  C150-->C172-->Piper 160-->Piper 180-->C120 tail dragger--->Mooney--Piper Apache-->and so on. Enjoy graduating from one class to the next, pay your dues, and earn your wings, don't buy them.  Sure you can get into harvard if your dad makes a donation and you might live to tell us about it. It's no fun burying your pilot friends but it is fun flying with them which is what we all want to do--be happy flying.

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9 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

 

Umm, I don't want to speak for @Herlihy Brother, but I read into his post some degree of tongue-in-cheek or ad absurdum intention...

Thanks @jaylw314 , you are correct.  In a lot of ways the mooney is a pussy cat, and is my low and slow plane.  I don't think it should be a zero hour PP's low and slow plane. I flew her coast to coast at about 20' agl. I hope a 0 hour pp would fly his c150 at 20' agl, not the mooney.  On those two  ad absurdum and controversial statements I proffered, I am not sure where I stand. But I am adamant that anyone getting into a mooney should be able to win both sides of a debate on both of those before doing so.  Sadly, most cannot, and worst, some don't care.  To that point, I accidentally spun my c120 one day when I was a green 250 hr pp.  It was a non event after going upside down and recovering that is. How many mooney pilots know that it takes 5k' or more to recover from a mooney spin, if you can even recover?   The mooney wing stalls hard--if your engine quits on climbout, and you don't push forward asap, your're gonna die, and there's a video online capturing that death.  Are you gonna tell me, zero time pilot, that you have that instinct and you're gonna not be like that dead pilot, but you're gonna push?  I'll take that bet, and so will the insurance company, we will both bet against you, and sadly we will both win. I've lived through a handful of engine failures, and this thing called helmet fire is real.  If you don't have at least a few thousand hours under your belt when your engine quits, you better pray that your in a cessna and not a complex plane like a mooney, bonanza etc.

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4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

HB,

I was wondering what your other airplane was...

Is this it?

http://jetav.com/adam-aircraft-a700-specs-and-description/

:)

Best regards,

-a-

No, I should probably fix that to something that makes sense. My other plane is the "twin mooney," a Ted Smith Aerostar 601p/700 superstar.

Of course, the straight 601p, at 237 knots on 35gph, is the real twin mooney, not my gas guzzling 245 knot 700.  To get good mileage I need to slow down to ridiculous slow 210 knots and 28gph, and that's pretty much what I do most of the time...For those that don't know, Aerostar Aircraft owned both this twin and our mooney for a brief time. But also, I believe that Ted Smith and Al Mooney were kindred spirits, and that if Al had designed a twin, it would have been the Aerostar 601p.  Then, Rocket Engineering would have, like Machen, created the Super Star 700 (hp).

IMG_20170225_164353682_HDR.jpg

330 knots gps.jpg

aerostar and john.jpg

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Thread drift warning....

21 hours ago, thinwing said:

Nuke...I also flew a lot with my father in Alaska while very young.Thats were I got the aviation desease,sounds like it got your sister and you apparently not immune.The ppl training will present many challenges just like your engineering training but if your like me will be well worth it.People here reacted to your statements about “complex” Mooney’s being not so complex as being naive.It would be like if I tried to design a nuclear reactor...I simply don’t know what I don’t  know! Sure I can explain how Reactor grade plutonium is moderated cause I studied that in college but that makes me no expert.Regardless,this insurance thing is just a bump in the road...there will be others,just enjoy the ride.

 

12 hours ago, GLJA said:

Good Lord, were we neighbors???? I’ve been blaming my Father for costing me a lot of money these past couple years. He worked at Flow Station One on the Alaska Pipeline in the late 70s. We’d fly out of Anchorage on his days off. Either from the airport or off Lake Hood on floats. 

 

11 hours ago, thinwing said:

Remember walking home from 2nd grade and getting lost in a blizzard!

 

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Was it uphill both ways? :)
 

I lived in Eagle River when my Dad was flying HC-130's out of Elmendorf. Walked to school 3-6th grade, and yes it was uphill both ways, a trail through the woods that peaked at the halfway point. There was also a street light at the high point of the trail. No roads nearby, it was put there just so the kids going to and from school in the dark during the winter would have a little light.

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On 12/4/2019 at 2:29 PM, Nukemzzz said:

I'm in the process of purchasing a 1966 M20e from my sister and have plans to train for my PPL in this aircraft.  I'm working on the details of getting it to Indiana from Northern Florida and I've located a hangar.  Today I hit a snag in my plans.... I requested an insurance quote from Falcon and just called to see why I've not heard anything and they told me the following:

I cant help you on insurance, but add me to the list of folks who think you should do your initial training - to solo and then until you are well proficient at landing - in a trainer. Bonus points if you learn to land in a taildragger. It will make you a better Mooney pilot and not be abusive to your new plane.

I would consider getting the airplane when it is convenient, and leaving it stored un-insured, or leave it insured under your sister, just to store it. When you are ready for your cross-country training, and can land your taildragger trainer well, get transition training into your mooney and then start your cross-countries. When the time comes for your checkride you'll be looking at 15-20 hours of time in type.

Take the private checkride in whatever airplane you are insured in. I would imagine after PPL and some mooney time you will then be insurable. Your private will take a few more hours this way but I think it would be overall a more efficient approach.

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@Parker_Woodruff I've had students of mine get insurance in their Mooney without having their private. They didn't seem to have much issue with me on the policy. Could a post-private buyer get a policy that only allows for dual with a higher time CFI? That way he could buy the plane and build time until the insurance co was willing to work with him??

 

-Robert

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36 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

@Parker_Woodruff I've had students of mine get insurance in their Mooney without having their private. They didn't seem to have much issue with me on the policy. Could a post-private buyer get a policy that only allows for dual with a higher time CFI? That way he could buy the plane and build time until the insurance co was willing to work with him??

 

-Robert

There are presently no problems getting private pilots covered on a Mooney.

I've written one student this year on an M20R and some newer private pilots on several Mooneys.

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Ok... so I've learned a lot about my situation and starting off as a pilot and trying to buy an airplane in a very short amount of time.  

Some things you should understand about my personality... when I decided to do something I GO and it's hard to stop me.  I'm very decisive and then relentless about getting to where I decided to go.  Anything that gets in my way I perceive subconsciously as a challenge to overcome.  Serves me well in many things, however, it seems in this area there are many systems in place to protect me (and others) from this behavioral trait. 

This all started for me about 3 weeks ago (yes weeks).  There are some personal reasons that have me highly motivated to get and learn in this plane, primarily the fact that I'm trying to help my sister out of a very bad situation and I'm trying to be a good brother.  This plane is really the only asset that she has from a nasty divorce and it has cost her $8k just to get it airworthy again for various reasons that I won't get in to.  She doesn't want to fly anymore and I wanted the maintenance and upkeep of the plane to be my problem and not hers with the benefit of getting my license and her having her asset as cash in hand instead of her having to go through the trouble of trying to sell it on the market. 

Another aspect is I have a friend that is a CFI and so I was inclined to use an instructor that I know over a stranger... even if he isn't a Mooney expert. 

So I thought about it and made the decision that I'm going to buy this plane so it's not her problem anymore with the desire to help her and to keep this historic bird in the air while finally getting my license, using a friend to teach me. Side note: my late grandfather and personal hero loved Mooneys.

In 3 weeks:  convinced my wife that getting to Florida for Christmas each year in 3.5hrs instead of 11 is awesome; I read countless articles on the plane; watch videos on it and the history; learned about how the approach speed is key to getting this bird to sit down, and how the short gear causes high ground effect; how the “shotgun“ gage arrangement takes getting used to; read about the M20 model variations and about the known issues and maintenance issues (ex: Fuel Tank Seals); learned how the constant speed prop functioned mechanically (really cool old tech);  went to Florida and hired an instructor to take me up so I could fly it around (I knew more about some aspects of the plane then him because of my research...I had to work the landing gear) and logged 0.9hr of dual in the plane,; read all of the log-books on the plane and took notes on the history (it's not perfect); met with the current mechanic for the plane and asked a lot of questions; worked a deal to get the plane transported to Indiana with a plan to get it up here over Christmas break; called all my local airports to locate a hanger (not easy to find); purchased the Sporty's Pilot training and have made it about half way through the online programs so i could clear the written ASAP; and then started checking on my own insurance for the plane.... roadblock...hard stop (Then came my OP above)

Now I've learned some new things that are in my way of reaching my goal (in a hurry) and I'm going to have to slow down it seems:

  • I decided based on our conversation above that I should train first in a trainer and slow down on getting the Mooney up here.  Seems the only way to do this in my town is at the local flight school in their planes and with their instructors.  Not so easy to do with my CFI friend as there are no planes to rent for this purpose.  So that part of my plan is maybe foiled.
  • I need to get a medical cert of course... and want to do it right away in case there is an issue.  I though my physician would just inspect my seals and gaskets and make sure I'm not going to die in the next 2yrs of natural causes and sign something.  Turns out there is only one doctor that can do this in my city and there is significant paperwork and such that goes along with that.  IE: Bigger deal that i thought.

My desire is to break a Guiness Book World record on getting my license and a plane... but it seems that it's time to "slow my roll".  I had a blind spot on the non-technical challenges and barriers in this hobby. This isn't going to happen fast.  I need to chill and take it easy.  

Thanks again for the feedback and advice.   Perhaps now you better understand now the background behind some of my crazy notions...

 

 

Edited by Nukemzzz
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As a CfI, I'll tell you to rent for training and finish your private certificate in a trainer.

Nothing says you can't just buy the plane and put it on not-in-motion coverage until you are a private pilot and ready to go.

Also, there shouldn't be a problem getting your CFI checked out in the plane at least enough to deliver it home for you.  Maybe even keep it insured for flight and your CFI can keep it exercised.

You can get a policy specifically excluding you while at the controls of the aircraft.

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26 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

As a CfI, I'll tell you to rent for training and finish your private certificate in a trainer.

Nothing says you can't just buy the plane and put it on not-in-motion coverage until you are a private pilot and ready to go.

Also, there shouldn't be a problem getting your CFI checked out in the plane at least enough to deliver it home for you.  Maybe even keep it insured for flight and your CFI can keep it exercised.

You can get a policy specifically excluding you while at the controls of the aircraft.

Some interesting suggestions in here. I mean who wouldn’t want free access to a sweet vintage Mooney while the owner works on his license?  The current insurance doesn’t cover him because he doesn’t have 15hrs PIC in an M20e and doubtful he has 100hrs retractable (open pilot clause). But maybe I can get him added as a primary pilot with his qualifications. Not sure. Really the insurance is the biggest confusion for me in all of this and I have low patience for such things. Lol

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31 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

Some interesting suggestions in here. I mean who wouldn’t want free access to a sweet vintage Mooney while the owner works on his license?  The current insurance doesn’t cover him because he doesn’t have 15hrs PIC in an M20e and doubtful he has 100hrs retractable (open pilot clause). But maybe I can get him added as a primary pilot with his qualifications. Not sure. Really the insurance is the biggest confusion for me in all of this and I have low patience for such things. Lol

You can get a sub-70 year old CFI with no losses in the last 5 years added as a named pilot for no problem.  The insurance company would make him get a checkout prior to sole PIC operations.

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5 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

Ok... so I've learned a lot about my situation and starting off as a pilot and trying to buy an airplane in a very short amount of time.  

Some things you should understand about my personality... when I decided to do something I GO and it's hard to stop me.  I'm very decisive and then relentless about getting to where I decided to go.  Anything that gets in my way I perceive subconsciously as a challenge to overcome.  Serves me well in many things, however, it seems in this area there are many systems in place to protect me (and others) from this behavioral trait. 

This all started for me about 3 weeks ago (yes weeks).  There are some personal reasons that have me highly motivated to get and learn in this plane, primarily the fact that I'm trying to help my sister out of a very bad situation and I'm trying to be a good brother.  This plane is really the only asset that she has from a nasty divorce and it has cost her $8k just to get it airworthy again for various reasons that I won't get in to.  She doesn't want to fly anymore and I wanted the maintenance and upkeep of the plane to be my problem and not hers with the benefit of getting my license and her having her asset as cash in hand instead of her having to go through the trouble of trying to sell it on the market. 

Another aspect is I have a friend that is a CFI and so I was inclined to use an instructor that I know over a stranger... even if he isn't a Mooney expert. 

So I thought about it and made the decision that I'm going to buy this plane so it's not her problem anymore with the desire to help her and to keep this historic bird in the air while finally getting my license, using a friend to teach me. Side note: my late grandfather and personal hero loved Mooneys.

In 3 weeks:  convinced my wife that getting to Florida for Christmas each year in 3.5hrs instead of 11 is awesome; I read countless articles on the plane; watch videos on it and the history; learned about how the approach speed is key to getting this bird to sit down, and how the short gear causes high ground effect; how the “shotgun“ gage arrangement takes getting used to; read about the M20 model variations and about the known issues and maintenance issues (ex: Fuel Tank Seals); learned how the constant speed prop functioned mechanically (really cool old tech);  went to Florida and hired an instructor to take me up so I could fly it around (I knew more about some aspects of the plane then him because of my research...I had to work the landing gear) and logged 0.9hr of dual in the plane,; read all of the log-books on the plane and took notes on the history (it's not perfect); met with the current mechanic for the plane and asked a lot of questions; worked a deal to get the plane transported to Indiana with a plan to get it up here over Christmas break; called all my local airports to locate a hanger (not easy to find); purchased the Sporty's Pilot training and have made it about half way through the online programs so i could clear the written ASAP; and then started checking on my own insurance for the plane.... roadblock...hard stop (Then came my OP above)

Now I've learned some new things that are in my way of reaching my goal (in a hurry) and I'm going to have to slow down it seems:

  • I decided based on our conversation above that I should train first in a trainer and slow down on getting the Mooney up here.  Seems the only way to do this in my town is at the local flight school in their planes and with their instructors.  Not so easy to do with my CFI friend as there are no planes to rent for this purpose.  So that part of my plan is maybe foiled.
  • I need to get a medical cert of course... and want to do it right away in case there is an issue.  I though my physician would just inspect my seals and gaskets and make sure I'm not going to die in the next 2yrs of natural causes and sign something.  Turns out there is only one doctor that can do this in my city and there is significant paperwork and such that goes along with that.  IE: Bigger deal that i thought.

My desire is to break a Guiness Book World record on getting my license and a plane... but it seems that it's time to "slow my roll".  I had a blind spot on the non-technical challenges and barriers in this hobby. This isn't going to happen fast.  I need to chill and take it easy.  

Thanks again for the feedback and advice.   Perhaps now you better understand now the background behind some of my crazy notions...

 

 

Sounds like a good plan. In your free time, you might want to check out the book “Thinking fast and slow” by Daniel Kahneman. Should be required reading for all pilots. There’s probably a reason he earned a Nobel prize.

Sounds like you’re healthy, but 3rd class medical can have some “gotchas.” Make sure you read over the disqualifying conditions carefully and have your ducks in a row BEFORE you AME opens your medexpress application. If there’s and chance you won’t qualify don’t do the exam until you’ve sought professional help.

I’m sure you’ve seen the picture below, but it’s a good reminder about how sometimes in aviation it’s the little things that really cause you problems. Good luck on your journey. Make sure you post a picture with you in the left seat of your plane!

 

96A226CD-22EE-4972-87F7-73F01745804F.jpeg

Edited by ilovecornfields
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6 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

There are presently no problems getting private pilots covered on a Mooney.

I've written one student this year on an M20R and some newer private pilots on several Mooneys.

Parker, out of curiosity, can you comment on the hull value and liability limits on the Ovation you wrote?

Thanks,

Steve

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Buy the plane get your CFI friend insured in it.   Go learn to land in a trainer.  have your CFI friend land and take off the mooney.  You can do the cruise portion as part of your dual cross country and such.   The mooney is going to need to be flown and worked on.  When the mooney is in the shop, fly the trainer and get your ppl.   getting your ppl fast is not dependent on the plane, it is defendant on your ability to learn and time available to fly.  Maintenance will cost more than the purchase price.

 

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