Jump to content

First post: Falcon can't find me an underwriter!


Recommended Posts

 

3 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

I do think i should practice landings in someone else' plane.  However, my Instructor thinks it would be fine to train in the Mooney and I shouldn't bother renting since it's best to learn to fly in the plane you are actually going to own.  I honestly can see both sides of the argument and it doesn't matter to me really.

I don't agree with your instructor's statement at all.  For IFR training, sure, but for primary training, no.  For primary training, you want the cheapest, lowest risk aircraft you can afford to fly.

 

20 minutes ago, donkaye said:

15 hours in type for an instructor isn't nearly enough for an instructor to teach you how to fly the Mooney.  THAT is not a Mooney specific instructor.  You need to find someone else for the transition training and go back to your preferred instructor later.

I'd agree, except I remember when I was looking for insurance, most required instructors have 25 hours in type.  I asked if that could be in any Mooney, and they said no, it had to specifically be in an M20J (fortunately he did).  I mean, good grief, what if your instructor has hundreds of hours in a bunch of Mooney's, but doesn't have 25 hours in that rare M20D you're looking at buying? :wacko:

I know it's unrelated to OP, but just struck me as kind of weird.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

 

I'd agree, except I remember when I was looking for insurance, most required instructors have 25 hours in type.  I asked if that could be in any Mooney, and they said no, it had to specifically be in an M20J (fortunately he did).  I mean, good grief, what if your instructor has hundreds of hours in a bunch of Mooney's, but doesn't have 25 hours in that rare M20D you're looking at buying? :wacko:

I know it's unrelated to OP, but just struck me as kind of weird.

A good agent will pick up the phone, call the underwriter, and get that instructor approved on a Mooney experience basis.

I get approved all the time for the M20C/D/E because I probably only have 5-15 hours in each of those and most companies want 25.

They hear "Parker has ~750 hours in all Mooneys M20C/D/E/F/J/K/R/TN and they get the idea. Most of that is M20J and M20K.

Every now and then they'll have me go fly solo for an hour (like for the Acclaim) before I provide the training.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd agree, except I remember when I was looking for insurance, most required instructors have 25 hours in type.  I asked if that could be in any Mooney, and they said no, it had to specifically be in an M20J (fortunately he did).  I mean, good grief, what if your instructor has hundreds of hours in a bunch of Mooney's, but doesn't have 25 hours in that rare M20D you're looking at buying? :wacko:

When I was going to instruct in my first M20V, the clients policy had a clause for 25 hrs in make and model for the instructor....uhhhhh, not possible..these things are not in the wild yet! Eventually, the underwriter succumbed to the idea that perhaps a brand new model might not have instructors that met this, and allowed the boatload of TN time to count.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, thanks for all the great and informative responses. I clearly do have some more thinking to do on this subject. And this discussion has helped a lot. 
 

I’ve been influenced by a father that has always had a plane but honestly I don’t know how he afforded it, and other pilots that have told me that if I think of the finance aspects I won’t do it...so just go for it. 
 

I’m going to ignore most of the rude comments that are passing judgement on my character and intelligence. You don’t know me. I’m outwardly light hearted, and I joke a lot, but in my head it’s a totally different story.   Don’t get me wrong, I believe that getting my PPL is likely to be one the biggest challenges I’ve faced. I lose sleep wondering if I’m capable of landing with my left hand, not to mention. Learning precise radio communications. What I didn’t expect was insurance being this complicated and time consuming. 

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I don’t think that’s true.  I named my instructor on my policy when I was getting my ppl in the mooney.     A non pilot baron owner here has me insured to fly his baron.   

See Parker’s post about rental or adding an additional insured ( instructor)to primary policy.Those are secondary to the owners liability/hull coverage.What my  guy says when I tried to get insurance flying a friends non insured Maule,was that I couldn’t be insured for it because I wasn’t an owner.He stated I had no insurable interest.Situation here is similar because he can’t get insurance as an owner because he lacks qualification ,and if I understand it ,he can’t buy insurance for his instructor as primary insured because instructor doesn’t own the aircraft.Maybe Parker can weigh in if AI got this right

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

First, thanks for all the great and informative responses. I clearly do have some more thinking to do on this subject. And this discussion has helped a lot. 
 

I’ve been influenced by a father that has always had a plane but honestly I don’t know how he afforded it, and other pilots that have told me that if I think of the finance aspects I won’t do it...so just go for it. 
 

I’m going to ignore most of the rude comments that are passing judgement on my character and intelligence. You don’t know me. I’m outwardly light hearted, and I joke a lot, but in my head it’s a totally different story.   Don’t get me wrong, I believe that getting my PPL is likely to be one the biggest challenges I’ve faced. I lose sleep wondering if I’m capable of landing with my left hand, not to mention. Learning precise radio communications. What I didn’t expect was insurance being this complicated and time consuming. 

Nuke...I also flew a lot with my father in Alaska while very young.Thats were I got the aviation desease,sounds like it got your sister and you apparently not immune.The ppl training will present many challenges just like your engineering training but if your like me will be well worth it.People here reacted to your statements about “complex” Mooney’s being not so complex as being naive.It would be like if I tried to design a nuclear reactor...I simply don’t know what I don’t  know! Sure I can explain how Reactor grade plutonium is moderated cause I studied that in college but that makes me no expert.Regardless,this insurance thing is just a bump in the road...there will be others,just enjoy the ride.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nukemzzz said:

I’m going to ignore most of the rude comments that are passing judgement on my character and intelligence. You don’t know me. I’m outwardly light hearted, and I joke a lot, but in my head it’s a totally different story.   Don’t get me wrong, I believe that getting my PPL is likely to be one the biggest challenges I’ve faced. I lose sleep wondering if I’m capable of landing with my left hand, not to mention. Learning precise radio communications. What I didn’t expect was insurance being this complicated and time consuming. 

I’m sorry if you feel that people are passing judgement on your intelligence and I agree with you that we have no reliable way to judge that. Regardless, smart people crash planes all the time so your intelligence is not the issue here.

I think what people ARE doing is taking the time to help you understand the process of owning and flying airplanes. I mean this not as an offensive statement, but as a statement of fact that applied to all of us when we started to learn to fly: you don’t know what you don’t know. Please don’t take offense at this because it is a global statement and not specifically directed at you.

Your original post lamenting your lack of insurability mentioned your credit rating and your (unlogged?) flying experience with your dad, but not how many hours you have, what licenses you hold and what medical certificate you have. Which of those factors do you think are relevant to your insurability?

If 10 doctors told you that you had high blood pressure but you didn’t think you did, what would that say about your judgement? Now imagine you are a life insurance company considering offering a policy to that person with uncontrolled hypertension who refuses to take meds. What kind of rate would you quote?

You’re not uninsurable. You’re just not ready to be insured in a high performance complex airplane. Stick with it and you will be. And you may even learn a lot in the process.

We all love flying and talking about flying and are happy to help. There are certain life events that you don’t really understand until you experience them (like having children) so it may be worthwhile to listen to those who have gone through the process you intend to embark on rather than dismiss them out of hand.

It sounds like you’ve done difficult things. Getting a pilots license is NOT that difficult. Being a safe profesional pilot is. Choose which one you want.

Edited by ilovecornfields
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most mooney pilots could talk for hours about these next two statements.  And that is good because I think it is important to have a confident grasp of the issues they present and the arguments for and against them. They come from a place of love, meaning a mooney has special care and treatment requirements, so mooney pilots imo tend to be very caring people, and we love and care about you and your safety and happiness not just because you are fellow human brother but also one about to bless us all by joining our group--something we all look forward to.

1) Most pilots shouldn't be flying a complex plane, ever, and especially not a mooney for additional mooney specific reasons.


2) No Pilot should fly a complex plane, and especially not a mooney for additional mooney specific reasons, without at least x (300-500?) hundred hours flying experience plus additional hard ifr instrument experience including the challenging landing conditions accompanying a strong weather system, icing, turbulence and more.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Herlihy Brother said:

Most mooney pilots could talk for hours about these next two statements.  And that is good because I think it is important to have a confident grasp of the issues they present and the arguments for and against them. They come from a place of love, meaning a mooney has special care and treatment requirements, so mooney pilots imo tend to be very caring people, and we love and care about you and your safety and happiness not just because you are fellow human brother but also one about to bless us all by joining our group--something we all look forward to.

1) Most pilots shouldn't be flying a complex plane, ever, and especially not a mooney for additional mooney specific reasons.


2) No Pilot should fly a complex plane, and especially not a mooney for additional mooney specific reasons, without at least x (300-500?) hundred hours flying experience plus additional hard ifr instrument experience including the challenging landing conditions accompanying a strong weather system, icing, turbulence and more.

 

I strongly disagree with both of these. Most any pilot willing to learn can safely fly a Mooney. I learned to fly mine safely beginning five weeks after my PPL checkride, with 52 whole hours in my logbook (all in two particular 172s). There were trees on both ends of the 3000' field, resulting in a displaced threshold at one end and a non-standard glideslope at the other end that included adding power to level off until clear of the trees . . . . There was a very active flight school there.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Herlihy Brother said:

Most mooney pilots could talk for hours about these next two statements.  And that is good because I think it is important to have a confident grasp of the issues they present and the arguments for and against them. They come from a place of love, meaning a mooney has special care and treatment requirements, so mooney pilots imo tend to be very caring people, and we love and care about you and your safety and happiness not just because you are fellow human brother but also one about to bless us all by joining our group--something we all look forward to.

1) Most pilots shouldn't be flying a complex plane, ever, and especially not a mooney for additional mooney specific reasons.


2) No Pilot should fly a complex plane, and especially not a mooney for additional mooney specific reasons, without at least x (300-500?) hundred hours flying experience plus additional hard ifr instrument experience including the challenging landing conditions accompanying a strong weather system, icing, turbulence and more.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

I strongly disagree with both of these. Most any pilot willing to learn can safely fly a Mooney. I learned to fly mine safely beginning five weeks after my PPL checkride, with 52 whole hours in my logbook (all in two particular 172s). There were trees on both ends of the 3000' field, resulting in a displaced threshold at one end and a non-standard glideslope at the other end that included adding power to level off until clear of the trees . . . . There was a very active flight school there.

I'm with you Hank. I heard similar things from the owner of the flight school I was taking my PPL from. "Don't buy a Mooney right away, get more experience, buy something slower and then fly a Mooney after a few years..." Boy am I glad I didn't listen to him.

58.6 hours in my logbook when I bought and started flying my Mooney. I did the insurance requisite 10 hours of dual instruction. It took me about 7 hours to feel ready and by the time I hit 10 I was comfortable flying on my own. Another 5 hours solo and I started flying my family around. That was 3 years ago this coming week. In that time I've flown all over the place, including from the west coast (SoCal) to the east coast (First Flight KFFA)  this past summer, all without (gasp :blink:) an instrument rating. Of my flying almost 300 hours of it has been cross country of over 50nm, with frequent trips between SoCal and Phoenix, Salt Lake City, and Idaho Falls, so definitely long enough distances to cross into new weather systems. 340+ hours later of time in my Mooney and countless adventures with more to come.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

A good agent will pick up the phone, call the underwriter, and get that instructor approved on a Mooney experience basis.

I get approved all the time for the M20C/D/E because I probably only have 5-15 hours in each of those and most companies want 25.

They hear "Parker has ~750 hours in all Mooneys M20C/D/E/F/J/K/R/TN and they get the idea. Most of that is M20J and M20K.

Every now and then they'll have me go fly solo for an hour (like for the Acclaim) before I provide the training.

I feel like something change not too long ago. I've had a few students come to be because I have 25 hours in various Mooneys (mostly pre-K). But I really feel like the underwriters used to consider all pre-K's as the same thing. I know several people who got insured in an F model with no dual required with 0 time in an F but they had time in a J or C. That was some years ago so I feel something change.

-Robert 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wasn’t trying to be rude, all I’m saying is I detected some arrogance and sense of invincibility in tour first few posts. Both of which are incredibly dangerous. 
 

maybe I’m wrong. 
 

call other insurance companies. Avemco will probably cover you but I’m telling you now, it’s going to be a lot. 
 

the systems might not sound complex, but with 0 hours I promise those first few hours of takeoff and landing practice will have you fully task saturated and it’s not going to be in your best interest to add landing gear and a prop control to the mix. 
 

I remember getting my skydiving A rating and thinking about how was it possible to perform all the maneuvers in time. When I got my D I looked at my logs from my first few jumps and learning with basic things. It was the same when I got my PPL. 

Edited by chriscalandro
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First year low time pilot in a Mooney insurance is high. Mine fell 2nd year by 50% because I flew 100 hours the first year. Year 3 no change  With instrument rating, Year 4 fell another 30%.

So it's possible, it's just not an inexpensive beginning . . . ..

Good luck! And fly safe!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hank said:

First year low time pilot in a Mooney insurance is high. Mine fell 2nd year by 50% because I flew 100 hours the first year. Year 3 no change  With instrument rating, Year 4 fell another 30%.

So it's possible, it's just not an inexpensive beginning . . . ..

Good luck! And fly safe!!

I’ve actually been reading these forums for some weeks learning about the model and the ins and outs of the hobby and I was under the impression that many have trained in vintage Mooneys with no issue (though many strongly disagreed with the idea) and the reports of insurance costs seemed reasonable. As stated above by others, I think something has changed recently. 
 

I’m curious if my age is a factor. Learning to fly, like most things, is easier when you are younger. 42 might be in a high risk class for a student. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

I’m curious if my age is a factor. Learning to fly, like most things, is easier when you are younger. 42 might be in a high risk class for a student. 

At the age, age shouldn't be an issue to learning to fly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:


 

I’m going to ignore most of the rude comments that are passing judgement on my character and intelligence.

This happens quite a lot around here...

The topic isn’t a very friendly topic...

The advice offered by everyone in the thread is valid...

What you do with it is up to you...

Yes, I read them all... by now, I pretty much know the personalities of all that have shared...

 

Everyone at MS has a lot to gain by bringing people into the Mooney world...

Nothing is gained by watching somebody figure it out on their own...

What is really surprising... to Me... you have family members that aren’t offering you much help in getting going in a generally safe direction... or you haven’t shared that part... or I didn’t recognize when you did...

I think if my dad and my sis threw me the keys and said go fly... everyone in the house is doing it...

I might take on some risk that I probably don’t want to do...

 

Don’t feel picked on... there is a right way... and a not so right way...

Years from now, you look back at this thread and shake your head... going huh....

 

How often do you ask yourself... why is everyone in my family flying planes... but not me...?

If nothing else...

You will find MS is accessible by the internet... it doesn’t mean... Ms has to be a mean place, with mean people, always trying to misguide you...

Sometimes participating in aviation is difficult...the reason MS exists... it is a group of nearly like minded people working together to get to their own next level...

Many have started with no time in their log books...

Some are private pilot with very little time beyond that...

Some came here with other ownership experience...

My favorite is the dad who works closely with his son to work on getting the license and plane...

Some have spent thousands of hours flying Mooneys as CFIIs...

People that care, usually ask a lot of questions...

The list goes on...

 

As far as the snarky-ness of People’s posts...  you may recognize that some people come from different backgrounds, and age groups and a whole bunch of other reasons....

Or they worked a long day, and what they wrote didn’t come out perfectly...

You probably didn’t mean to complain, or you aren’t complaining... :)

Check the thread title... Sounds like Falcon is unable to do something for you...

If you are looking for assistance it pays to be extra friendly if you are able...  

As you pointed out, some snarky people get ignored...

Sometimes it helps to say thank your for each item you learn from...

After all that...

What are your next steps?

Best regards,

-a-

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nukemzzz said:

I’ve actually been reading these forums for some weeks learning about the model and the ins and outs of the hobby and I was under the impression that many have trained in vintage Mooneys with no issue (though many strongly disagreed with the idea) and the reports of insurance costs seemed reasonable. As stated above by others, I think something has changed recently. 
 

I’m curious if my age is a factor. Learning to fly, like most things, is easier when you are younger. 42 might be in a high risk class for a student. 

That's a couple years younger than I was when I started my PPL 3 1/2 years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/4/2019 at 6:55 PM, corn_flake said:

One more thing.  Most M20E shouldn't be a high performance unless it got a turbo or some other mod.  High performance is defined as 201 HP or more.  M20E is only rated for 200 ponies. 

The E is complex, not high performance (FAA).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Hank said:

First year low time pilot in a Mooney insurance is high. Mine fell 2nd year by 50% because I flew 100 hours the first year. Year 3 no change  With instrument rating, Year 4 fell another 30%.

So it's possible, it's just not an inexpensive beginning . . . ..

Good luck! And fly safe!!

 

1 hour ago, Nukemzzz said:

I’ve actually been reading these forums for some weeks learning about the model and the ins and outs of the hobby and I was under the impression that many have trained in vintage Mooneys with no issue (though many strongly disagreed with the idea) and the reports of insurance costs seemed reasonable. As stated above by others, I think something has changed recently. 
 

I’m curious if my age is a factor. Learning to fly, like most things, is easier when you are younger. 42 might be in a high risk class for a student. 

My experiences above began with earning my PPL at age 45 . . . . You're a long way from being considered too old to fly. 

One of my goals is to qualify as a UFO. To join the United Flying Octogenarians, I / you need to fly as Pilot In Command of an aitplane on or after the 80th birthday.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds to me like you (OP) are trying to move too fast. Get your PPL in a Cessna--they fly like Mary Poppins parasol. You can rent them at almost any FBO and get insurance with your CFI as a student. After you have your ticket, go fly a Mooney with a Mooney CFI (yes, they are unique, not all CFI's are Mooney CFI's).

What the insurance company will do is sentence you to a specific number of hours training. When I bought The Mistress, they demanded 10 hours.Frankly, it was ten of the best hours of my life. Had a great time literally flying across the republic (of Texas) landing here there and everywhere. The guy I trained with knew Mooneys inside and out and my love of this airplane is partly attributed to him.

So, take it easy, go slow. You'll go fast enough when the time comes and you'll never go back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So many steps to add...

1) folding gear

2) adjustable pitch prop

3) adding excess HP

4) going on long XCs to unfamiliar places...

5) Changing weather...

6) Changing latitudes...

7) New pilots have had a tendency to run out of gas...

8) They also had a tendency to fly VFR into IMC...

9) experienced pilots tended to fly into icing conditions...

10) They also have had a tendency to fly into thunderstorms...


11) Getting all this right... joining the UFOs is on the horizon...  :)

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, thinwing said:

Nuke...I also flew a lot with my father in Alaska while very young.Thats were I got the aviation desease,sounds like it got your sister and you apparently not immune.The ppl training will present many challenges just like your engineering training but if your like me will be well worth it.People here reacted to your statements about “complex” Mooney’s being not so complex as being naive.It would be like if I tried to design a nuclear reactor...I simply don’t know what I don’t  know! Sure I can explain how Reactor grade plutonium is moderated cause I studied that in college but that makes me no expert.Regardless,this insurance thing is just a bump in the road...there will be others,just enjoy the ride.

Good Lord, were we neighbors???? I’ve been blaming my Father for costing me a lot of money these past couple years. He worked at Flow Station One on the Alaska Pipeline in the late 70s. We’d fly out of Anchorage on his days off. Either from the airport or off Lake Hood on floats. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.